Another c&r refusal.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by evan price, Mar 28, 2016.

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  1. evan price

    evan price Member

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    I just had a seller in Gunbroker tell me he would not ship a Springfield Trapdoor carbine to me. The gun is in original configuration. I have a C&R license. The excuse is that the gun fires a modern centerfire cartridge that is still available, and since it is an Antique, it isn't a Curio or Relic. Seller even managed to sound offended that I even asked.
     
  2. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    Made before 1900 and firing a black powder cartridge, you should not even have to pass a background check by my understanding. I will find out soon as I am purchasing a Springfield trapdoor that was cut down to appear like a cavalry carbine at some time in the past from a local gunshop that picked it up when buying an estate. Even though it is a fake I think it will be fun to shoot and something good to add to my collection since it began life as a real trapdoor rifle. I will probably try to research it's history once I take possession.
     
  3. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    If it were an original antique trapdoor rifle, even though it was in a commercially available caliber, it would be C&R eligible as an original trapdoor.

    It it were a repro of an antique, it would have to use ammunition not ordinarily commercially available to be exempt as a repro of an antique.

    A modern copy of a 1860 Henry in .44 rimfire caliber is treated as a repro antique; a modern copy of a 1860 Hentry in .44-40 is a modern rifle (Title I, 1968 GCA); neither modern copy would be a C&R.

    Most C&R firearms are treated as Title I, 1968 GCA firearms for most legal purposes, but ATF has decided they are more valued as collectibles than as weapons and are on the C&R list.

    Maybe the seller mentioned in the opening post was selling a modern copy of a trapdoor and calling it "antique". Or he was confused by the definitions (as I may well be, or anyone who has tried to read them).
     
  4. slumlord44

    slumlord44 Member

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    Any FFL can refuse to accept a C&R if he chooses to. As stated the trapdoor is an antique if it is not a repo and should need nothing. I have had FFL's request my C&R for an antique and I don't have a problem with that. I log it in my book even though technically I wouldn't have to. I don't think the BATF would have a problem with it being in my book. I have encountered several FFL's who actually don't know what a C&R is.
     
  5. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    Obviously there are FFL's who aren't entirely knowledgeable about C&R. You could forward him a list of what the ATF has listed, with the ones you are interested in buying: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics

    A cash customer who wants to buy guns won't be ignored as much in the future. Like AR pistol owners, it's up to the interested ones to make a pitch about it and dispel the misinformation.

    From the ATF website, for those who don't know: "Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list."

    I take the word "any" to be those that otherwise would not fall under the 1934 NFA. That would include pre 65 AR15's, Ak47's, FNFAL's, etc. Nature of the cartridge or it's current use would eliminate many if that were the criteria, and it's not. Age is the determination. Like the NFA and the AR15, they didn't see it coming.

    That's why C&R is going to be interesting in the next 20 years as guns that would otherwise fall under the AWB will become a hot topic issue. In could buy a nice used HK91 and have it shipped direct to my front door. If I could afford one. :(
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2016
  6. GBExpat

    GBExpat Member

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    :( Sorry to hear that you discovered such a nice rifle that is owned by a dullard.

    So now you are faced with ... is the rifle worth the additional cost & hassle of having it shipped to a local dealer?

    I think that a lot of us have faced that decision when dealing with ignorant and/or obstreperous Sellers.
     
  7. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd member

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    I get it.

    I had a fella get tense with me on my requirement that he find a local dealer for a particular transaction last month.

    Doesn't matter what the firearm is or the effect of state lines.

    I'll avow that it was not "mandatory" in a legal sense.

    I didn't care, it's what I as the seller wanted and that's the way it was.

    If the seller's not comfortable, it's up to him to make the call.

    On the other side of the equation, even California cuts TDs a lot of lee-way as antiques.


    Todd.



    Todd.
     
  8. Paul7

    Paul7 Member

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    That would make me wonder what else the dealer is telling me isn't true.
     
  9. tark

    tark Member

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    I,m pretty sure that any firearm over 50 years old is a C&R, machine gun or not. Of course, a class III C&R is still subject to the usual restrictions and extra taxes.

    RIA Auction company has been selling a lot of Class III weapons lately, and they are almost always listed as having C&R status. But some are not, even though the are over 50 years old.

    This seems odd to me. Perhaps one of you with a Class III licence can clear this up .

    As far as gun stores and my C&R licence, I have pretty much given up trying to but a gun with it. No one seems to know what a C&R licence is and those who do insist that a gun has to to be on the list in order to be a C&R. NO, no, no! The list is basically a list of exceptions to the 50 year rule. And then there are the idiots who will accept you licence, but still insist you have to fill out a 4473 and run the background check. When you try to educate them they become suspicious that you are trying to pull something.

    If it weren't for Simpson's, in Galesburg, that is staffed by people with functioning brains, I would turn in my licence.
     
  10. deadin

    deadin Member

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    I occasionally run into this, but as long as they are paying for the background check, I don't care.
    Same with a seller not wanting to ship to my C&R as long as they are willing to absorb any fees involved using a dealer (both ends, unless what I'm buying is a real deal that I really want.....)

    I even have run into a shop (usually of the Pawn variety) that can't recognize a true antique and want all of the paperwork done. One was for a S&W 1st Model American (made 1870ish). For the price being asked ($400) I didn't mind filling out the 4473........;)
     
  11. stonecutter2

    stonecutter2 Member

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    This is correct.

    A firearm need not be specifically mentioned to be C&R eligible by the ATF, if it's over 50 years old, it's C&R.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2016
  12. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    AS AN ASIDE: some state laws allow NFA firearms only if they are on the official ATF C&R list. You will see C&R status in listings for Class III (Title II, NFA) items for that reason.
     
  13. TimSr

    TimSr Member

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    I used to have a Curios and Relics FFL in the 80's and early 90's, and found the definitions at that time to be blurry at best. While it is annoying and sometimes even enraging, when they don't get it right, I have to look at things from the seller's view as well as my own. If they transfer one weapon that does not qualify, they can be criminally prosecuted. (Most ATF FFL violations involve non-willful incorrect paperwork.) If they require all the unnecessary paperwork and rules to cover everything, the worst they get is unhappy or dissatisfied customers, and lost sales. While neither is desirable, I think I'd err on the side of bureaucratic overkill.
     
  14. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    There is a definite lack of consistency in these areas, not just C&R issues.

    Theoretically, you should be able to walk out of any gun shop with a pre-1899 cartridge firearm without any ATF paperwork. However, many still insist on the 4473 and background check, especially if the gun can shoot "normal" ammo (like .45/70 or .44/40). Cabela's would not budge on a 1869 production .50/70 Trapdoor, making the process the same as if I was buying a new gun. Another gun shop had no problem letting me take an 1892 last production Trapdoor out the the door with just the receipt.
     
  15. Jackal

    Jackal Member

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    If its older than 50 years old, its C&R eligible, period.
     
  16. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Nope.

    There is a comma, not a period, and then a lot more words that follow.
     
  17. Jackal

    Jackal Member

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    Haha, please dont split any more of my hairs, I dont have many left.:neener::D
     
  18. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    Well if it's an antique, you should tell him that's even better because antique firearms require no FFL whatsoever to purchase.
     
  19. evan price

    evan price Member

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    He's insisted it only ship to an 01. It is an original TD not a replica. The whole "antique but modern but not c&r" spiel didn't make any sense nor could he explain or reference ATF regs to defend it.
    I told him I will buy from someone else and he told me the law is the law and nobody else does it any different.
    And this is why in absence of saying they accept c&rs in the listing, I ask before bidding. I don't want over a grand of my money tied up in an argument.
     
  20. GBExpat

    GBExpat Member

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    I do the same. Always. I find it easy because I have yet to ever find a truly comprehensive Description provided on any auction, so I will be emailing anyway. :)

    I also ask about shipping to my C&R on auctions that interest me where the "I am a Dealer so only ship to Dealer" part of the description looks like boilerplate.

    Most of the times they have responded that they will. Actually, I currently have a C&R revolver in-transit from one of those "I will only ship to Dealer" folks. ;)
     
  21. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    Seller is a ignorant person who need to avail themselves of the current law and how it defines the term "antique" in relation to a firearm. If it is an "antique" (mfg prior to 1898) then it's not even a regulated firearm. He can send that to ANYBODY.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2016
  22. rbernie
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    rbernie Contributing Member

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    A lot of times, the seller will log an antique into their bound book (a mistake). They then feel obligated to sell it under the same conditions that they'd use for any other gun in that bound book.

    I can't tell you how many old small ring Mauser's I've had to deal with that way.....
     
  23. yugorpk

    yugorpk member

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    Ive seen them enter Ruger Old Army's into their books and refuse to ship directly .
     
  24. Liberty1776

    Liberty1776 Member

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    Personally I don't buy from others that won't accept my C&R. It IS and FFL, just a different No.
     
  25. tark

    tark Member

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    California has made it difficult for C&R holders by passing a law that ALL firearms sales, private or otherwise, must go through a type 1 FFL. Good luck enforcing that one.

    Illinois is even worse. All muzzle loading guns are considered firearms under state law, and so are air powered guns that achieve a MV of 1000 FPS.
     
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