Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by evan price, Mar 28, 2016.
It it were a repro of an antique, it would have to use ammunition not ordinarily commercially available to be exempt as a repro of an antique.
A modern copy of a 1860 Henry in .44 rimfire caliber is treated as a repro antique; a modern copy of a 1860 Hentry in .44-40 is a modern rifle (Title I, 1968 GCA); neither modern copy would be a C&R.
Most C&R firearms are treated as Title I, 1968 GCA firearms for most legal purposes, but ATF has decided they are more valued as collectibles than as weapons and are on the C&R list.
Maybe the seller mentioned in the opening post was selling a modern copy of a trapdoor and calling it "antique". Or he was confused by the definitions (as I may well be, or anyone who has tried to read them).
A cash customer who wants to buy guns won't be ignored as much in the future. Like AR pistol owners, it's up to the interested ones to make a pitch about it and dispel the misinformation.
From the ATF website, for those who don't know: "Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list."
I take the word "any" to be those that otherwise would not fall under the 1934 NFA. That would include pre 65 AR15's, Ak47's, FNFAL's, etc. Nature of the cartridge or it's current use would eliminate many if that were the criteria, and it's not. Age is the determination. Like the NFA and the AR15, they didn't see it coming.
That's why C&R is going to be interesting in the next 20 years as guns that would otherwise fall under the AWB will become a hot topic issue. In could buy a nice used HK91 and have it shipped direct to my front door. If I could afford one.
Sorry to hear that you discovered such a nice rifle that is owned by a dullard.
So now you are faced with ... is the rifle worth the additional cost & hassle of having it shipped to a local dealer?
I think that a lot of us have faced that decision when dealing with ignorant and/or obstreperous Sellers.
I get it.
I had a fella get tense with me on my requirement that he find a local dealer for a particular transaction last month.
Doesn't matter what the firearm is or the effect of state lines.
I'll avow that it was not "mandatory" in a legal sense.
I didn't care, it's what I as the seller wanted and that's the way it was.
If the seller's not comfortable, it's up to him to make the call.
On the other side of the equation, even California cuts TDs a lot of lee-way as antiques.
RIA Auction company has been selling a lot of Class III weapons lately, and they are almost always listed as having C&R status. But some are not, even though the are over 50 years old.
This seems odd to me. Perhaps one of you with a Class III licence can clear this up .
As far as gun stores and my C&R licence, I have pretty much given up trying to but a gun with it. No one seems to know what a C&R licence is and those who do insist that a gun has to to be on the list in order to be a C&R. NO, no, no! The list is basically a list of exceptions to the 50 year rule. And then there are the idiots who will accept you licence, but still insist you have to fill out a 4473 and run the background check. When you try to educate them they become suspicious that you are trying to pull something.
If it weren't for Simpson's, in Galesburg, that is staffed by people with functioning brains, I would turn in my licence.
I occasionally run into this, but as long as they are paying for the background check, I don't care.
Same with a seller not wanting to ship to my C&R as long as they are willing to absorb any fees involved using a dealer (both ends, unless what I'm buying is a real deal that I really want.....)
I even have run into a shop (usually of the Pawn variety) that can't recognize a true antique and want all of the paperwork done. One was for a S&W 1st Model American (made 1870ish). For the price being asked ($400) I didn't mind filling out the 4473........
This is correct.
A firearm need not be specifically mentioned to be C&R eligible by the ATF, if it's over 50 years old, it's C&R.
Theoretically, you should be able to walk out of any gun shop with a pre-1899 cartridge firearm without any ATF paperwork. However, many still insist on the 4473 and background check, especially if the gun can shoot "normal" ammo (like .45/70 or .44/40). Cabela's would not budge on a 1869 production .50/70 Trapdoor, making the process the same as if I was buying a new gun. Another gun shop had no problem letting me take an 1892 last production Trapdoor out the the door with just the receipt.
There is a comma, not a period, and then a lot more words that follow.
Haha, please dont split any more of my hairs, I dont have many left.
I told him I will buy from someone else and he told me the law is the law and nobody else does it any different.
And this is why in absence of saying they accept c&rs in the listing, I ask before bidding. I don't want over a grand of my money tied up in an argument.
I do the same. Always. I find it easy because I have yet to ever find a truly comprehensive Description provided on any auction, so I will be emailing anyway.
I also ask about shipping to my C&R on auctions that interest me where the "I am a Dealer so only ship to Dealer" part of the description looks like boilerplate.
Most of the times they have responded that they will. Actually, I currently have a C&R revolver in-transit from one of those "I will only ship to Dealer" folks.
Seller is a ignorant person who need to avail themselves of the current law and how it defines the term "antique" in relation to a firearm. If it is an "antique" (mfg prior to 1898) then it's not even a regulated firearm. He can send that to ANYBODY.
A lot of times, the seller will log an antique into their bound book (a mistake). They then feel obligated to sell it under the same conditions that they'd use for any other gun in that bound book.
I can't tell you how many old small ring Mauser's I've had to deal with that way.....
Ive seen them enter Ruger Old Army's into their books and refuse to ship directly .
Illinois is even worse. All muzzle loading guns are considered firearms under state law, and so are air powered guns that achieve a MV of 1000 FPS.
Separate names with a comma.