Another excessive use of force

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by RPZ, Jul 5, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,571
    Location:
    Western NYS

    Almost agree.

    After the initial attack,the stick attacker did manage to strike [ and break ] the windshield.

    I am not about to second guess the shooter,as I WAS NOT BEING ATTACKED = and I might be in a more comfortable zone with an attack than he.

    AND ,they had history which just "MIGHT" have had to do with the attacker being the one with the upper hand in the past.

    SO = is it just conceavable that the shooter was injured or hospitalized in the past [ unkowns are not to be judged by me ].

    The shooter might also have continued to shoot from TOTAL FEAR, not reasonable to us.

    BUT to him it might have to do with the past ----- again.

    I am not judging him wrong,but if it were me,I am sure I could have done something else.

    BUT --------- it was not me,or you !!.
     
  2. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,571
    Location:
    Western NYS

    Being able to get Moosad Ayoob on your defense team would be VERY helpful here.

    If you have read his stuff,and the stuff from the institute of force,you would see a different point of view.

    And they do work ALL over the world ,in trials.
     
    Deaf Smith likes this.
  3. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Kingsport Tennessee
    First shot appeared justifiable. Second shot less so. As soon as third parties showed up (potential collateral damage) shooting should stop.

    That third and last shot appears to be deliberate and unnecessary execution. That raises questions about the past history between the two. Which goes beyond what's in the video and raises suspicions. For all I know, the shooter may have provoked and lured the clubber into a killing field for the purpose of execution. The last shot raises questions

    Almost a side point: It was not just a stick: it was an iron bar. More dangerous than just a stick, which would have raised the fear and anger of the man initially attacked. We are expecting the man to engage in calm reflection in the face of an upraised and swung iron bar.
     
  4. Shaq

    Shaq Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    634
    Perfect example of MMQB.
     
  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,728
    One might choose to characterize it that way, but it is how persons given the duties to investigate incidents involving the use of force, to enforce the late, and to decide on evidence presented at trial go about things.
     
  6. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    18,574
    Location:
    DFW Area
    Priority list.
    1. It is imperative to survive.
    2. It is critical to stay out of jail.
    3. It is important to mount a successful civil defense.
    4. It's sort of fun and satisfying to be able to convince yourself you're right about the use of deadly force.
    I think we all have priority 1 figured out, but after that a lot of people get confused and seem to put priority #4 way too high on the list.

    If you want to stay out of jail and keep your worldly possessions, you need to pay attention to what people have to say on the topic. Because people will be on the jury, and frankly, this is a far more sympathetic audience than any jury is likely to be.
     
    Golf-21-Bravo and scaatylobo like this.
  7. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    25,305
    Somebody recently told me that in Israel you are supposed to aim for the legs. Being that the speaker displayed lack of knowledge (or more precisely, "knowledge" of non-facts) during the conversation, I don't put much stock in his statement. But I don't know the actual rules there.
     
  8. Snyper

    Snyper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Eastern NC
    While that may be true, it means nothing to the ones there when it happens.

    They have split seconds to make life or death decisions, and no amount of internet second guessing can help with that.

    It's an entertaining way to pass the time, but it's foolish to think it really accomplishes much.

    If you don't do #1, nothing that follows will matter.
    You can't be preoccupied with those other things when it's time to act.

    You just have to know the laws as well as you can and hope for the best if you feel the need to use any sort of force.
     
  9. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,728
    It means everything to the ones there when it happened.

    Not speaking here of "internet second guessing". The subject is what invesitators, the charging authority, and a jury will decide,

    They will go about an after the fact evaluation,

    It is not done coo find an entertaining way to pass th time.

    The rest of us can learn from what others did wrong or did right, or we can choose to not try to do so,
     
  10. strambo

    strambo Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,961
    Location:
    Oregon
    I come from a world that conducts After Action Reviews on every operation as well as studies of battles to include "Field Rides" touring battlefields to learn as much as possible about the good elements of our performance and how to sustain that, as well as what to improve, this includes learning from others. It takes too long (and we may not live through it) if we only learn from our experience, never learning lessons from others.

    I honed in on the biggest improvement I saw (that he absolutely could have done) shut and lock the door! This would have given him a lot more time and options...you can call that MMQB if you wish, I'll keep learning and improving the way I know how.

    BTW, did you hop on youtube and post the same comment on ASP's site? Isn't MMQB what those videos are all about?
     
    Apachedriver likes this.
  11. strambo

    strambo Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,961
    Location:
    Oregon
    "Internet second-guessing" can't help them, but it can certainly help you if it informs your thoughts, actions and TRAINING, revolving around use of force situations. Unless you think you have no control over with will happen in those few seconds. If that is the case, what separates the best military and LE operators from the typical CCW holder when it comes to combat performance? Are survival and staying out of jail mutually exclusive? Or, is one (staying out of jail) out of your control in those few seconds? Or, are there operational methods that can be learned and trained (and continually improved) to vastly improve one's odds of staying out of jail? Are you saying if this shooter had had gobs of "shoot-no shoot" and reactive target (stop shooting when they fall) training along with legal training from the likes of Ayoob he'd be in this predicament anyway? (He would if he wanted to murder the guy, no training trumps will)

    Lastly, if the week prior to this event, the shooter was on this forum and saw a thread on a video almost exactly like this and he read and participated in it, might it have influenced his thoughts on justifiable use of force, couldn't it have had an impact? Otherwise, why is anyone watching and commenting on this stuff, sick entertainment? That's not why I'm here...
     
  12. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    2,549
    Location:
    Lewisville, Tx
    So many people miss this point. Arguments can be made back and worth about the necessity and situation for the first few shots and if they were justified, if other options were a better tactical choice or if the sky was blue that morning. What can't be argued, and what sent this man to jail and would send anyone to jail in every country I know, was the execution shot. The right to use lethal force in self defense absolutely ends when the threat ends. By continuing to use lethal force after a bystander has interposed themselves and created a barrier to the conflict, the shooter switches from legal self defense to murder.
     
  13. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,708
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    I consider when people say they should have 'aimed for the legs' or 'shoot the gun out of their hand' or 'fire a warning shot' they do not have a clue to what can happen. Bullet might sever the femoral artery in the leg, or miss and hit someone else (as happened to a cop recently when he shot a dog and the bullet ricocheted and killed a young man), or the bullet pass on through and still hit someone.

    As Tuco would say..."When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." But in this case... if you have to shoot, shoot to stop them in their tracks.

    Deaf
     
  14. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,728
    Absolutely!
     
    scaatylobo likes this.
  15. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    12,732
    Location:
    California - San Francisco Bay Area
    No, there's a lot more one can do it he's serious about his performance in a crisis.

    • He can train and practice, especially focusing on fundamentals to become as proficient as he can so the mechanics of shooting accurately become reflexive.

    • He can compete. Competition, especially IDPA and USPSA, gives one experience performing under stress.

    • He can do simulator and force-on-force training. When properly done this sort of training improves one's powers of observation and decision making under stress.

    So there is a lot more one can do besides just trying to memorize the law and hope for the best.
     
  16. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,582
    I have worked with straight leg IDF units as well as did a cross training exercise with the Mossad, they don't train to shoot for the legs unless there is a specific rule of engagement (hostage situation, HVT capture etc) just like we do. In a country that requires a couple years of military service, I do not expect the populace to have the same attitude to training.
     
  17. Snyper

    Snyper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Eastern NC
    That may be your "subject", but it wasn't mine.

    The "MMQB" doesn't matter to the person at the time the incident is occurring.
    All they have to go on is their own perceptions from their own point of view,
    Nothing that takes place afterwards will change any thing,
     
  18. Snyper

    Snyper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Eastern NC
    The context of my comment was avoiding jail and lawsuits, which was part of the post I quoted.

    I seldom write essays that include every possibility.
    People quickly lose interest with long winded posts.
     
  19. Snyper

    Snyper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Eastern NC
    I suspect it would have had no effect at all since he still only had split seconds to react to a violent attack.

    There are differing opinions here as to what he should have done, so there's no reason to think the outcome would be that much different.

    I've read some posts here stating that people "panic" under stress and aren't capable of thinking or even interpreting what they see going on around them.

    Look for the thread about an incident on a subway car.
     
  20. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    12,732
    Location:
    California - San Francisco Bay Area
    So was mine. But as usual, you just don't get it.

    What does "know the law as well as you can" really mean? One can have the law memorized and understand it backwards and forwards while sitting in his easy chair at home. That's not going to be much help on the street in a violent incident, although it can be a useful starting point.

    But if one's goal is to both survive the incident and stay out of prison, he needs be able to apply the legal principles quickly, under stress to make good decisions. Some of the training I outlined will increase one's ability to make good decisions quickly, under stress.

    I know. That's one of the reasons it's generally not worth paying much attention to anything you write.

    Not everyone has as short an attention span as you do.
     
  21. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,728
    Alrighty, then.

    But what takes place afterwards--in the investigation, in the charging decision, and in a court of law--will decide everything.
     
  22. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,728
    That there were only split seconds to react is in almost every use of force incident, and what the defender understands will have a tremendous effect.

    I have seen no responsible opinion offered to the effect that the man acted properly.

    And?
     
  23. Snyper

    Snyper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Eastern NC
    That has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.
     
  24. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,728
    Then it is not at all clear what you were talking about.
     
  25. Snyper

    Snyper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Eastern NC
    You're entitled to your opinions on that as well.
    Not everyone agrees.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice