Another Glock Kaboom

[LiveLife]

To you guys who have been reloading for them without problems for years: how about sharing your recipes that work over and over. (bullet, case, powder) The rest of us can use that info to learn to "fly".....I think that's why we are all here.

I started out match shooting 1911 and Sig 226 using various powders (Bullseye, Clays, W231, Universal, WSF and HS6). Although I pushed and tested the max load data limits with them (traditional land/groove rifling), when I transitioned to Glock 17 and later Glock 22 for match shooting, I did not want to shoot max loads in them all the time as I used mixed headstamp range brass with unknown reload/powder charge history (The higher than published load data velocities out of Glock barrels with hexagonal rifling had me worried that for some reason, Glock barrels were generating higher chamber pressures and I wanted some "head room" to buffer in case I got some pressure spikes - better safe than sorry).

Since G22 with 155/180 gr jacketed Montana Gold bullets easily met the power factor without using near max load data, I settled with W231 and have used it ever since. Many match shooters transitioned to Titegroup for higher pressure 9mm and 40S&W and I witnessed several guns blow up at the range (because of the narrow load range of Titegroup, I recommend new reloaders start out with broader load range W231/HP-38).

For reloads in Glocks, I have used W231/HP-38 with start to high range load data that will reliably cycle the slide (below are load data used in my Gen3 Glocks and factory barrels with mixed range brass and Winchester SP/LP primers - your results may vary).

9mm (1.125" - 1.135" OAL):
115 gr jacketed Winchester/Montana Gold RN (.355"): 4.8 gr - any less and won't reliably cycle the stiff recoil springs in new Glocks, especially subcompacts (you can try lower charges as long as you have reliable slide cycling)

124 gr jacketed MG/Rainier plated RN (.355"): 4.4-4.6 gr - heavier bullet will reliably cycle the slide with lower charges

124 gr Berry's plated RN (.356"): 4.1-4.3 gr - Berry's plated bullets are sized larger than jacketed bullets and I use lead load data.

125 gr Missouri Bullet lead RN (.356"): 4.0-4.3 gr (I inspect the factory Glock barrel every 200-300 rounds or so for fouling/leading build up and clean as necessary)

40 S&W (1.125" OAL):
155 gr jacketed Montana Gold FP (.400"): 5.3-5.7 gr

165 gr jacketed MG/PowerBond/Rainier plated FP (.400"): 4.8-5.0 gr

180 gr jacketed MG/PowerBond/Rainier plated FP (.400"): 4.1-4.6 gr (I have used Rainier plated with 3.8-4.0 gr charge for accurate training load that reliably cycle the slide)

180 gr Berry's plated FP (.401"): 3.8-4.3 gr - Reduced load for larger diameter bullet

180 gr Missouri Bullet lead FP (.401"): 3.8-4.3 gr (I inspect the factory Glock barrel every 200-300 rounds or so for fouling/leading build up and clean as necessary)

 

[Bovice]

Lots of bashing on titegroup... That's not very nice. I used to use titegroup for my pistol reloads until I decided I liked universal better. But if I had double-charged with titegroup, it would be plainly visible when I put the bullet on the case to be seated. I was loading at the bottom of the range for titegroup/165 grain jacketed at 4.6 grains. Even at this charge weight, a double would be easy to catch.

My charge weight of universal is 5.3 grains... If I double that, it almost entirely fills my case. No way to miss it.

It has everything to do with the person who loaded the rounds and nothing to do with the powder.

 

[LiveLife]

Not bashing Titegroup (I actually like the powder as it produces very accurate loads - why would so many match shooters use it?). It is good for making power factor for match shooting but we have a lot of new reloaders here and not what I would recommend for those just starting out. It does not offer new reloaders much "head room" to buffer against pressure spikes at max/over max charges.

Once a new reloader is experienced with verifying actual accuracy of powder charges, I would then recommend Titegroup. I have come across new reloaders who "thought" they were getting X.X grains of powder only to find that they were off as much as .3-.5+ gr off when I verified the powder charges. If they were using max load data, they would be overcharging their loads at shorter than published load data to feed/chamber in their pistols (some had such loose neck tensions that bullets would seat deeper when chambered further increasing the chamber pressure).

For this thread (Pistol KaBoom, not just Glock KB) and this other thread, I am just interested in safe reloading practices for new reloaders and hopefully prevent future KBs.

 

[Bovice]

If you can't get your powder charges to be consistent, you shouldn't be reloading at all. That much has nothing to do with experience level. How does knowing how to use a simple scale and adjusting your powder measure only come after being an "experienced" reloader?

 

[LiveLife]

I didn't post that you needed to be an "experienced" reloader, just that you needed to be "experienced" to accurately verify powder charges. This can be accomplished in less than an hour, with proper direction/instruction to properly zero/calibrate your scale (verify with check weights) and weigh your powder charges for consistency and accuracy.

Once a new reloader is experienced with verifying actual accuracy of powder charges

 

[Bovice]

Right... How is scale calibration a big issue? I use a digital scale and it takes less than a minute to calibrate after I've turned it on. The proper use of a scale is a prerequisite to reloading, regardless of what kind of powder is being used. I still don't see the problem using titegroup or any "fast burning" powder.

If you're being ignorant and not verifying your charge weight and get a kaboom, that's your own fault.

If you're purposely trying to hot-rod your rounds and you have a kaboom, that's your own fault.

If you're not paying attention and double charge a case, that's your fault. It's not difficult to look down into the case right before you seat the bullet. If it's double charged, you will know it. It won't look right. If you're too lazy to do that, the hornady powder cop is a nice tool to have. It won't tell you exactly how much is in there, but it will definitely tell you when you've got a double charge or a zero charge situation.

Titegroup for 40 S&W (since we're talking about Glock .40 kabooms) has a range of 4.6 to 5.1 for the 165 grain jacketed bullet, at the shortest end of the OAL range 1.125". Using a powder measure/hopper, you should be able to stay within 0.1 grains of your intended charge. Why would you want to go all the way up to 5.1, anyway? Regardless of the risk of possibly dropping 5.2 grains and being overloaded, the fastest/highest pressure load is hardly going to be the most accurate. I had awesome results with using only 4.6 grains out to 50 yards. Anyway, with a charge range of 0.5 grains any reloader worth his salt can stay in those confines.

 

[TxBobS]

Anyone ever consider that more Glocks kb because maybe there are more Glocks out there.

 

[moxie]

That was definitely a double-charge. Another item of concern is the big spread in the OALs, from 1.2 to 1.28. Some are awful short, and others too long. Poor control over the seating/crimping step. If you couple a double charge with a very short round (bullet seated way deep) the recipe for disaster is there. The guy needs to start over with the basics, from the beginning.

 

[flashhole]

Interesting thread. I choose powder/charges that will overflow the case if double charged, both rifle and pistol. It's a no-brainer safety mechanism built into the process that can keep you out of serious trouble.

 

[floydster]

In any of my handguns, I cannot get good results using Titegroup and cast bullets, just have had no luck with this powder.

 

[BADUNAME37]

I must carefully watch and be attentive for case bulges in my LCP as there is a portion of the case which remains unsupported while chambered, where the feed ramp is located. I have been cautious to watch that particular area of the empty cases ejecting on any loads I am developing and also on any of about 12 different factory loads I happened to buy here-and-there -- all in new boxes but some as old as 30 years, yet still like new ammo.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Reloading mistake or not he is blessed not to have lost some fingers. Nothing worse than a Glock when your shooting reloads and have any errors. That unsuported head case is just an accident waiting to happen. IMO I would never shoot reloads in a Glock.

 

[LiveLife]

As to OP, looks like a double charge was the root cause for the KaBoom of the G21.

Next, my focus would be:

1. How did a double charge happen?
2. How would you prevent the double charge from happening in the future?

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

Here is the link to the new burn rate chart: http://loaddata.com/articles/detail.cfm?articleID=35

Hope this helps.

Fred

WOW,

Thank you sir!

 

[918v]

1. How did a double charge happen?
2. How would you prevent the double charge from happening in the future?

1. Progressive reloading.
2. Single stage reloading.

 

[gamestalker]

BDS has hit the nail on the head again and addressed an additional point of interest, that being the new comers to this hobby. A new hand loader is still developing his or her style of preventive measures throughout the reloading process. With this factor starting out with slow burning powders will help them to identify and apply a good solid method of reconciling charged cases prior to seating that bullet. Once you've spilled powder all over the loading tray you quickly realize just how serious that mistake could have been, and how easily it could have been over looked if you had been loading with a faster burning powder.
And because I feel the odds are eventually going to catch up to me after so many years of reloading, I simply won't risk over looking a double charged case by using fast burning powders. And considering the fact that I have had more cases over flowing onto the loading tray than I care to recall, I'd say I've dodged the bullet, so to speak, enough times to convince me to stick to my slow burner's for the next 30 yrs., if the Lord should Bless me with that many more.

 

[Tom488]

The fault was not in the machine.... the fault was inattentiveness by the user, plain and simple. A single stage merely guarantees a MUCH lower round count per hour - it does nothing to prevent a screw-up. He could have been batch-loading cases, powder-charging 50 of them on a loading block, and easily have missed a case... resulting in a squib... which results in a blown-up gun on the next round.

Or... who knows... his powder measure could have bridged, and not dropped a charge. Then, on the next throw, the jam clears itself, and a double-charge of powder dumps out.

Oh, I know.... those dang volumetric powder measures are just as bad as those dang new-fangled progressive presses.... you should be weighing each and every charge on a beam scale... trickling up each charge so it's perfect. You should also probably crimp the bullets in place with your teeth, too.... just to make sure. These new-fangled factory crimp dies just don't do as good a job.

And... why the heck is he shootin' them rounds outta a PLASTIC gun, fer cryin' out loud? Don't'cha know that the only gun worth anything is one made by Samuel Colt hisself? Geez....

 

[flashhole]

How does a squip cycle the action without jamming? A dropped charge for example, is the primer itself strong enough to cycle the action? Not in my PT140.

 

[Hangingrock]

I see there are those that are prickly over the choice of powder and reloading method.

As for powder selection in the 9mm Luger – 38Spl – 44Spl & 45ACP if it can’t be done with W231 then I’m no longer doing it. I have used other powders but my preference is as stated for the cartridges listed.

One participant in this conversation referenced a burn chart. What is peculiar is the listing of HP38 at No. 22 and W231 at No.26 which I would assume is lot to lot variance.

As for single stage or progressive to me its attention to detail in regards to quality control /safety. I’ve been a reloader as opposed to handloader (there is a difference) for the last four decades.

Glocks appear to be the poster child for blow ups. I remember when examples of Colt and Smith & Wesson shared that distinction but it was always attributed to handloader/reloader error.

That said I like the functionality of Glocks enough to own examples in 9mm Luger and 45ACP.

I have no enthusiasm for the 40 S&W no matter the firearms producer. When you have 5-Gal buckets of brass for other cartridges there isn’t much time to waste on something new.

 

[LiveLife]

One participant in this conversation referenced a burn chart. What is peculiar is the listing of HP38 at No. 22 and W231 at No.26 which I would assume is lot to lot variance.

I do not know how current that powder burn rate chart is but according to Hodgdon, which owns IMR and licensed to sell Winchester powders, the two (W231/HP-38) are the same exact powder now. If you look at recent published load data and current online load data, they have been identical for quite a few years.

Older reloading manuals (and even newer like Lyman 49th for 185 gr 45ACP JHP - page 381) show different load data for W231 and HP-38. It is for this reason why I always use current published/online load data and use reloading manuals for reference purposes. If powder formulation changes, powder manufacturers will reflect it on their online/published load data first. Bullet manufacturers will have to redo the testing and rewrite their reloading manuals (if they choose to) and I am not sure if they keep track of powder formulation changes.

Hodgdon burn rate chart that includes newer powders like Alliant's E3 and Winchester's AutoComp shows W231/HP-38 right next to each other (#28 and #29) - http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

 

[Hangingrock]

bds:I do not know how current that powder burn rate chart is but according to Hodgdon, which owns IMR and licensed to sell Winchester powders, the two (W231/HP-38)arethesameexactpowdernow.

I believe the burn chart date was 2006. That’s rather odd since the mid/late nineteen -nineties I’ve known that HP38/W231 were one and the same. That’s why I mentioned lot to lot variance or the burn chart is suspect.

 

[Ed4032]

Anyone ever consider that more Glocks kb because maybe there are more Glocks out there.

It's either that or something else.

 

[Master Blaster]

A new case. Unsupported headspace strikes again.

Its an Unsupported Case head, at least get the Glock bashing defect reason right please.

 

[GW Staar]

Its an Unsupported Case head, at least get the Glock bashing defect reason right please.

Wow! It took 37 posts before somebody caught that. Noo beter jist a bad day alarownd. I have no idea why that term came out. Forgive me please.

Perfection isn't in my future....there will be more mistakes with words...I guarantee. Thank god for the spel chek fechure, ore id be worce. Now if I can just remember or take the time to use it every post and re-read them at least once first.

My only excuse on screwing up this thread twice was stress. The wife was calling me, and I was ignoring her until I finished the post.

 

[Waldog]

Since the source was handloaded ammo, the likelihood of a double charge is the obvious choice. In spite of all the "unsupported head" stuff about Glock pistols, there are about a trillion handloaded rounds shot in Glocks every year. What is more interesting would be to find out what type of press was the ammo loaded on. There are a couple of different "manually indexing" presses on the market and about 90% of the KABOOMS I have read about were loaded on a manually indexed press. It is important to note that it is not a faulty press design. It is an OPERATOR ERROR. Just something to think about.