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Another Inconvenient Truth

Discussion in 'Legal' started by pcosmar, Apr 29, 2007.

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  1. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    With all the threads promoting or criticising the NRA,GOA and JFPO, I thought I would point something out, watching from the outside as I do.
    There has been a lot of talk about "improving" the NICS system. The idea being to keep guns out of the hands of felon, wife beaters, and the mentally ill. Lofty goals, but unrealistic, The ill conceived NICS instant check may stop a few individuals that are targeted, but will do nothing about someone intent on killing.
    It does stop many from buying guns due to false information. It will stop those who do not want their privacy invaded.
    There are many who abuse the Lautenberg Amendment, in divorce cases or out of spite, and have a restraining order placed on an innocent party.

    The inconvenient truth is that it does nothing to stop a legal firearm owner from killing.
    The truth is , a lot of killings are by legal, otherwise lawful owners. There is no way of knowing when anyone is just going to go "off".
    The NICS system does nothing to stop crime, Yet spending millions to improve it is somehow going to help?
    How will it help when someone who is Normal, with no record just snaps? *How many police officers are involved in a Murder/Suicide?* A google search will bring up pages.
    There are many cases where the shooter was, up to that point, a law abiding Citizen. One with no criminal record or mental health issues.

    The right to self defense belongs to every Citizen.
    The responsibility for personal safety, also belongs to the Citizen.
    No government has the right to deny this to anyone.
    The 2nd amendment can not be compromised.

    *I am not cop bashing, I was surprised to find that it is so common. It is an example of the Law Abiding, being human.
     
  2. Erebus

    Erebus Member

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    How did you arrive at this conclusion?
     
  3. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    Some from news over the years, some from reading.
    Some I knew in prison, First offence.
    I believe ,if I remember right, the guy who shot the Amish school had no prior history.
     
  4. F4GIB

    F4GIB Member

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    I read a number of criminology articles on this. About 80% of killers have prior felonies and about 80% of "victims" do also. About the same percentages have alcohol or illegal drugs in their system at the time of the event.

    These are bad people doing bad things.

    The gun laws in America are not criminology, they are politics. 99.9% (educated guess) of DV misdemeanants and of bipolar, etc. patients never kill anyone, much less kill them with a gun. But any excuse to ban gun ownership is good enough for most Congresspersons, especially if its a voice vote* (allowing them to avoid responsibility).


    *It can only be done by a voice vote if no "pro-gun" member asks for a roll call. NRA has allowed this on numerous occasions (Hughes amendment banning new MG's, Lautenberg amendment, Wellstone amendment, etc.).
     
  5. duckandcover

    duckandcover Member

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  6. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    I do not have statistics on the efficacy of NICS in accurately identifying "prohibited persons" but I have seen statistics on what happens afterwards... nothing.

    NICS is touted as preventing tens of thousands of "prohibited persons" from obtaining guns, but a vanishingly small number of people denied by NICS are actually prosecuted for illegally attempting to obtain a firearm.
     
  7. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    Ancedotal evidence is not proof of anything. I would bet most murders were done by people who were already committing another crime.
     
  8. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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  9. Erebus

    Erebus Member

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    Which part of felon do you not understand? Legal gun owning felons are in the same catagory as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

    Felons are banned from owning any weapons for life.
     
  10. F4GIB

    F4GIB Member

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    OK. You've convinced me.

    Lots of police officers are also murderers, bank robbers, rapists, etc. So the "special people" mantle that they like to wear is identical to the "Emperor's new clothes" in the child's tale. I've prosecuted them for perjury, so I'll believe your links. Cops are intrinsically as bad (or, if you prefer, as good) as the rest of us. Certainly, they are no better. Individuals, on the other hand ... .
     
  11. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    Erebus said,
    And yet they get them. NICS does not work.

    That is the point.
    The guy who shot the kids at the Amish school was not a felon.
     
  12. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    Felons generally aren't using NICS to get firearms. To say it doesn't work is not really the truth. How many felons bought guns while passing the background check? It does work for legal gun owners and stupid criminals. It does little to stop most criminals from getting guns which I believe is your point. :)
     
  13. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    Maybe It's my communication skills, or lack of them.
    There has been so much infighting between "Gun Rights" organizations, and everyone is trying to fix a system that does not, and can not work.

    NICS has never worked and will never work.
     
  14. Erebus

    Erebus Member

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    No, you said this
    The answer is exactly ZERO. NICS or not they are NOT LEGAL gun owners. The law says that felons cannot own weapons, therefore no matter how they aquire them they are still not legal.

    Even if NICS fails and they aquire the gun from an FFL they are still NOT LEGAL gun owners.
     
  15. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time.
    The only thing that can be done is what was done in the Constitution.
    Give everyone the ability to defend themselves.
    That is why "shall not be infringed" was written.
     
  16. pacodelahoya

    pacodelahoya Member

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    ......Shall not be infringed.

    Hum, no matter how many times I read it, I just don't see the part about background checks or felons.


    Pcosmar you beat me to it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2007
  17. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    pcosmar

    I think I agree with what I think you were trying to say...maybe...:neener: :evil: :D
     
  18. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    Well, if you have said that first, there wouldn't be an argument. :D

    A good question to ask: Do the number of denials by the NICS system justify its continued existence? Basically, the only good it does is theoretically deny people a purchase who are not legally able to own a firearm. I think that means it has to be judged based on how many denials there are and maybe some small estimate of those that make no attempt to legally purchase because the system exists. Then you have to figure how many of the denials are valid as well. Might make an interesting study.
     
  19. Erebus

    Erebus Member

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    Completely agree with this statement. However as the law is now there is no such thing a legal gun owning felon. And I believe if they cannot be trusted with a gun they cannot be trusted at all and should stay incarcerated.
     
  20. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    One other question might be: Would an after-the-fact check be better or pointless?
     
  21. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    Erebus. That is true, as the law is now.
    How ever not all "felons"are violent.
    Also, by the law as it is, If your rights are restored, you are NOT a prohibited person.

    NICS does not keep those intent or evil from finding the means.
    NICS does infringe on the Rights of the law abiding.
     
  22. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    MechAg94
    Not sure I understand the question. I can see a lot of improvement done to the justice system might help. Changes in the laws, and sentencing may help.
    People will still do stupid and evil things. I don't see that changing any time soon. A proactive, self defense mindset would help.
    Criminals and predators will always target the weak and defenseless.
     
  23. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    People just don't "go off". There is always some underlying "cause" or personality trait or defect. It could even be a brain tumor. The point is, none of this can be predicted or prevented. The answer is to remain defensibly armed for when these things do crop up.

    It's called exercising your right to self defense and it is an inalienable right. Inalienable means you cannot divest yourself of it. Giving up your guns is as unconstitutional as someone taking them from you.

    Woody

    Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood
     
  24. Chui

    Chui member

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    I must concede that persons convicted of a felony should be required to go thru a NICS check to determine if they are not continually participating in the penal system.

    For the rest of us US citizens it should be no problem.

    The question is HOW WOULD SUCH A SYSTEM WORK???
     
  25. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    The same as it did prior to 1934.
     
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