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Another Non-firearm weapon of interest ...

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by craftsman, Mar 6, 2014.

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  1. craftsman

    craftsman Member

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    Ever have a fish bat? No, not the flying mammal that eats fishes.

    Look for images of the Aftco Fish bat. I found most fish bats go for about $25 USD.

    For those of you who are land-locked, when you land a huge saltwater fish on a boat, the sucker is still thrashing on the deck. This can be hazardous to humans, especially if it's a sailfish, marlin, sword fish, or the like. In order to put it out of its misery (if you're keeping it for flesh or trophy mount), you bludgeon it. A mini baseball bat is used, like the souvenir you get as a baseball stadium givaway - but they are wider, usually aluminum, 18 - 19 " and weighing about 1.3 lb. The "BamBam" brand is much heavier (lead shot filled), but costs about $60 USD. The Aftco has a curved handle end so you can hang it over the side rail (or if you keep it under your car seat, on the car door - LOL! ). It is not round, but 3-sided, and made out of the same material as the Cold Steel sjambok. I found one at http://www.tackledirect.com/aftcofishbat1.html $18. Best price I've found.
     
  2. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    We've had them included, along with tire testers, in the various club threads, but I don't recall a synthetic one. In territory where a fish bat makes sense it isn't too hard to explain one's presence in a vehicle and it might come in very handy in an ashore "fishy" situation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  3. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    See also Tire-bumpers, Tread-knockers, and Hobo hammers.
    (As used by the American Train Riders gang.)

    A simple stick off a hardwood tree, mounted with a wheel-weight lead end, cast over a campfire in an empty beer or Beeny-Weeny can.

    rc
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  4. danez71

    danez71 Member

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  5. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    As a long time professional angler (I worked on my first charter boat as a mate in 1973....) I've use a fish bat or billy on many occasions working the cockpit of one boat or another. We commonly used them on big fish that were thrashing about like sailfish, big dolphin (the fish), cobia, king macks, etc. A short club (which is all a billy is...) can be very effective for its intended purpose....

    Now for the bad news... since I walked right off the boats I worked on into our local police academy at the end of 1973 I learned to have a different take on billys, clubs, and any form of "blunt instrument". Our species has been killing each other with them since we first learned to use tools -with whatever object was available - a rock, a club, a bottle, hell anything that you can beat someone over the head with....

    As a result any stick, club, or similar type object used in a confrontation is considered using "deadly force". This means that the only time you can actually use one is when you'd be justified in killing (self defense), period. In that situation you're probably much better off with a firearm since you don't have to get so close to an opponent who really, really doesn't like you at all....
     
  6. desidog

    desidog Member

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    I first heard of an implement like that referred to as a "Priest" in English fly fishing books. Some were made out a a length of stag antler.

    I made an approx. 18" priest out of purple heart wood on the lathe in wood shop in 8th grade; tens of years, hundreds of blues and stripers and three boats later, it's still in the fishing kit somewhere under the console...surprisingly, since Purple Heart doesn't float!
     
  7. glistam

    glistam Member

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    Yeah I don't buy that. At least not as a universal legal truth applicable to the whole US. I know for a fact there are multiple states that legally allow private citizens to carry club-type weapons for self-defense in addition to firearms. TN for example allows it if you take a class first. Heck I've even used batons and other clubs myself on assailants where a firearm would have certainly been excessive force, and I wasn't arrested. Can they be deadly? Sure! Especially if you don't know what your doing and aim for the head. But not categorically considered deadly like a bullet is. Imagine what a nightmare that would be for any cop who used his or her baton on an unarmed suspect.
     
  8. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Down here in south Florida when I was in police work (1973 to 1995) we had more than one cop charged and prosecuted for using a baton (or old Kel-lite) to subdue (actually kill) a problem on the street. As a matter of fact we even had a riot or two that resulted from the results of various court cases...

    That's why I posted what I did. Yes, there are circumstances where you're more than justified in the use of a baton or club in self defense but don't kid yourself. It's still deadly force and you'll be judged on whether it was justified or not ( and head strikes meant to subdue can actually kill - happens all the time on the street....). And you still have to get entirely too close to an opponent that might just take your baton or club and make you wish you'd brought a gun instead - and stayed well out of reach.
     
  9. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    lemay, what you're ignoring is that in many areas a stick, club, or the like may be legal while a firearm is not. I'm also going to disagree on a club automatically being lethal force. Strikes to the head or throat, yes, that's lethal force. Strikes to major muscles, no. Strikes to joints if strikes to major muscles aren't effective would be an escalation, but still not lethal.

    And, once more, for anyone contemplating the carry of a stick or club for defense familiarize your self with your state and local laws and regulations.
     
  10. Sam Cade

    Sam Cade Member

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    That is one of those things that is going to be dependent on local laws.

    If a locality considers a club to be a lethal or deadly weapon the legal defensive usage of the weapon may be constrained much like a firearm or knife.
     
  11. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    I am amused that 2 items my department issued to me in the early 70's, the billy club and the beaver tail sap, are now enumerated as prohibited in the state law.

    Kinder and gentler I guess. :)
     
  12. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    Bats were favorites of the mob for non lethal or lethal applications. When I played Soft ball I had a bat with Glove and ball behind the seat of the Truck.
     
  13. craftsman

    craftsman Member

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    Decided NOT to get the fishbat. Will be replacing two of my walking canes (one home made, the other a hog control cane - 7/8 in. oak octagonal 36" from eNasco) with one Cold Steel poly (see an archived post) Blackthorn cane or the African cane (The blackthorn grip looks nicer and may feel better when in use as a cane, but is $23 more expensive - otherwise they are nearly identical), and instead of the fishbat, a Cold Steel poly non-returning boomerang. (you need to see the video on that! ) http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/92BRG/BOOMERANG.aspx More money than I wanted to spend, but in the long run, serves the same purpose.
     
  14. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Biker, you and I are from the same era. I still have both my old slapper and that much abused and scarred up billy club (mostly scarred up from breaking out windows, not beating heads) -but neither have seen use since that early era (73 to 79 for me). We had a whole series of serious prosecutions of cops down here starting in late 79 that caused every department to re-think it's contact weapons. Some years later when California had it's Rodney King moment, most of us in my area couldn't believe that professionals in that state hadn't already gotten the message loud and clear...

    Impact or contact weapons aren't illegal to possess in most instances -it's what you do with one that sets the stage for later legal problems. Anyone who doesn't understand the jeopardy you can find yourself in might learn that terrible lesson the hard way -particularly if they use them to strike the head area of an opponent in the heat of combat.
     
  15. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    Fish bat? Not so much.
    Tire bat? Yup. Always have tires on my vehicles and don't need 18 of them to justify.
     
  16. Carl Levitian

    Carl Levitian member

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    [Down here in south Florida when I was in police work (1973 to 1995) we had more than one cop charged and prosecuted for using a baton (or old Kel-lite) to subdue (actually kill) a problem on the street. As a matter of fact we even had a riot or two that resulted from the results of various court cases...

    That's why I posted what I did. Yes, there are circumstances where you're more than justified in the use of a baton or club in self defense but don't kid yourself. It's still deadly force and you'll be judged on whether it was justified or not ( and head strikes meant to subdue can actually kill - happens all the time on the street....). And you still have to get entirely too close to an opponent that might just take your baton or club and make you wish you'd brought a gun instead - and stayed well out of reach.]


    I don't know what police department or training academy you were with, but I went through the Colorado Law Enforcement Training Academy in 1977, and we were taught to never hit anyone over the head. That went out with the 1950's and blackjacks that were misused by ill trained police. They issued us the strait baton and trained us to work on hands, wrists, collar bones, stomach, and knees. Why would you even think to hit someone in the head with a club when it's way easier to just take out a hand or arm? We were issued a Koga baton to augment the issued Smith and Wesson model 64, as a non lethal defense and control tool. To my knowledge, nobody ever died from a broken wrist or knee cap.

    A stick gives many options only if the user uses his head.
     
  17. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    A club is treated as a lethal weapon most places so let's not make the "shoot them in the leg" non-lethal equivalent mistake. The fact that they can easily kill is sufficient. Also, having trained with all sorts of sticks and clubs, I can attest to the fact that you can also strike the head of a moving opponent by mistake when targeting the collar bone, upper arm, or shoulder.

    Yes, a club can be used as a less lethal defensive tool, but they can kill and can kill even when your intent isn't to do so if you don't understand how their use can go wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  18. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    Sticks work but as I was taught work arms gut and knees.
     
  19. craftsman

    craftsman Member

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    I ordered the Cold Steel non-returning boomerang and Blackthorn cane (from Amazon) last night ... free shipping and avoided about 1/3 off the Cold Steel price. Should be here in about a week.
     
  20. mdauben

    mdauben Member

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    I'm not sure about that. I have not surveyed all 50 states laws on the matter of sticks and clubs, but I do know that in every state I checked, its illegal for private citizens to carry a sap, billie or Asp style batton. There are a few places where your CCW licence covers things like that, too, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

    Now, things that have a legitimate non-violent use but can be pressed into service as impact weapons (canes, flashlights, pens) may be different, but single-purpose impact weapons like I mentioned above seem to seldom be legal "less lethal" alternatives to firearms.
     
  21. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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  22. Sam Cade

    Sam Cade Member

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    Kentucky allows pretty much any deadly weapon to be carried openly. Our CCDW permit only allows one to conceal their weapons.
     
  23. mdauben

    mdauben Member

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    O.C.G.A. § 16-11-126
    Carrying a concealed weapon


    (a) A person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon when such person knowingly has or carries about his or her person, unless in an open manner and fully exposed to view, any bludgeon, knuckles whether made from metal, thermoplastic, wood, or other similar material, firearm, knife designed for the purpose of offense and defense, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character outside of his or her home or place of business, except as permitted under this Code section.


    Admittedly, this only applies to concealed "bludgeons" but I would imagine that's the way most people would carry a billy club, sap or collapsable batton. I'm not sure what sort of response you would be likely to get from carrying one openly from LEO or the public.

    In the end, I guess I just want to encourage people to know the laws of their states and how they are enforced by the local LEOs before deciding on carrying something for self defence. Don't just assume that if its not a knife or a gun, that its automatically okay to slip into a pocket or tuck into your wasteband.
     
  24. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    While I agree with you 100% on this, there IS an important difference...namely that a baseball bat is NOT generally considered a weapon like a knife or gun with respect to carrying one around or having one in a car. There is no requirement, for example, to have a permit to carry one.

    I grant you that circumstances will determine how such an item may be viewed, whether as a weapon or not. I'll not debate that with you at all.

    ;)
     
  25. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    You obviously got that from an outdated website. OCGA 16-11-126 (a) actually says:
    Further, OCGA 16-11-125.1 defines what a weapon is:
     
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