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Another one-punch kill

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Andrew Rothman, Jun 22, 2005.

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  1. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    In this thread, I reported the case of a Minnesota 17-year-old killed by a single punch.

    I theorized that a bare-fists attack was sufficient cause to shoot. I was, so to speak, shot down.

    Today I saw this in the paper:
    That's two one-punch kills in Minnesota, exactly one week apart.

    I'm convinced. Any questions?
     
  2. richyoung

    richyoung Member

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    I've agreed with you all along - anyone who thinks a punch isn't a deadly attack needs to re-think their position. Look at how many high school baseball players have dies just from being struck in the chest by a pitched ball... a punch ANYWHERE can be lethal.
     
  3. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine Member

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    The very first Texas CHL shooting was an unarmed attacker.

    It was a "good" shooting.


    Even with the anti gunners and news screaming about the blood running in the streets.
     
  4. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Member

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    So, now every (potential) fist fight warrants drawing and shooting someone?
     
  5. WT

    WT Member

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    I'll suggest that it was the head striking the pavement which caused the death, not the punch.

    God help us if our police adopt this mentality - they will shoot everyone who provides the least amount of resistance - fearing the 'deadly one punch.'
     
  6. crofrog

    crofrog Member

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    Avoidness, Deterness, and Desclation.

    If you have tried to avoid, deter and desclate and he continues to press the attack (no retreat or not I'm going to try and get away if the situation premit's). Also I think you would be remiss to not carry any other use of force options in you have a CCP. I personally have close to a police duty belt in my pockets.

    Monadnock autolock 21 inch baton
    Surefire G2
    ASP Defender mace
    CRTK Crawford Kasper
    and if I wasn't in maryland I'd be carring a XD or Para 1911 14:45

    This way I have options I can follow a very police esque use of force continum. They want to fight me and the avoidness, deterness and desclation is going south. I'll one up there force. They want to punch me they get the mace and the baton. They have a wepon I'm going to mace and knife, and am going to try and "nuetralize" them. If that means they are going to be holding there gut's that was their choice. If I wasn't in maryland they'd get 2 in the chest 1 in the head.

    I just think right or wrong you would have issues in court if the attacker was unarmed and of a similar size. I mean if it's some ape I think you are g2g with the leathal force. Also if you have these other tool's it gives you other options which look good in court. "Well sir, I maced him frist. Then hit him with that baton and he still came at me with a lead pipe so I shot him until he stopped moving." Is better than "Well sir, he went to punch me and a shot him until he stopped."

    Also at those "contact" distances clearing the holster and employing the gun becomes difficult. It takes me a split second to get from 8 feet to in your face. I honestly think I would go for a knife in this case reguardless.

    Just my .02 YMMV

    Chris
     
  7. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    You stole my thunder M2 Carbine.

    I think the difference is in how a State's law defines when deadly force can be used. In Texas, deadly force is allowed in if there is a threat of serious injury in addition to death. Punches can cause serious bodily injury. I think that a number of states do not define it this way and say that you have to fear for your life or some other requirement. Now, with cases like this, you might reasonably claim that a fist fight could endanger your life, but you might have to convince a judge/jury of that.
     
  8. TarpleyG

    TarpleyG Member

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    Quite possibly, yes. Just last year, two old geezers got into it over one cutting in line at a movie theatre and the other one hit him and down he went, permanently. I am no longer willing to find out at my age and place in life. Fist fighting when you are 13 out by the flagpole is one thing.

    Greg
     
  9. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    I think the decision to draw or draw & fire when threatened with/afflicted with fisticuffs is highly situation dependant. I have a good idea what empty-handed stikes can do and am under no illusion I can soak up such as they can in "Hollywierd."

    A 5'-nuthin, 95lb gal throwing pathetic girly-punches at my chest and weeping: no drawing of CCW.

    6", 300lb fellow with shaven head, alcohol on his breath, and a tattoo of "Mein Kampf" on his forearm who is about to tear into me: gets drawn on and gets perforated if he doesn't stop.

    I suspect a lot of these "one punch kills " are complete surprises from out of the blue and makes the presence of a CCW moot.
     
  10. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Member

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    I had a very good friend who owned a gun shop, who had this silly idea that if someone came into his shop and robbed him without any show of weapons that he was powerless to stop it. He was pushing seventy years old at the time. I could not convince him that the law did not require him to take a beating just because his assailant was "unarmed".

    Pilgrim
     
  11. PowderBurn

    PowderBurn Member

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    What language is that??
     
  12. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

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    The human brain can suffer permanent injury with any deceleration that exceeds 300 G's. This can result from a fall of ~5' onto pavement, so simply TIPPING backwards can kill you.

    And anyone who's trained with a competent martial artist understands that one punch can be devastating, especially if you are caught with your guard down.


    Larry
     
  13. mics357

    mics357 Member

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    as I said in previous thread on this subject it's a step thing I will always
    1 try to avoid placing myself in a bad situation
    2 try to verbalize way out
    3 retreat if possible
    4 draw and again state my intention not to have physical confrontation
    5 if threat continues fire and take chances with leo and court as opposed to coroner and morgue.

    if you are ccw then there is no such thing as unarmed conflict. it's only a question of who uses weapon, the weapon is already there.
     
  14. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    Worth noting that the CHL holder suffered permanent injuries from being punched. It's not like a gradeschool fight or like in the movies. Getting punched by an adult male carries a good chance of permanent injury and as pointed out by Matt, even a possibility of death.

    Remember, being shot by a handgun is only fatal about 20% of the time and NO ONE questions whether a person shooting a handgun at you is grounds for use of deadly force.

    So, how high does the potential for fatality have to be before we can shoot? If someone's trying to hurt me and I perceive that they might kill or permanently injure me, REGARDLESS of their choice of weapons, I will respond with the force available to me.
     
  15. DirtyBrad

    DirtyBrad Member

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    Good chance I'm the only High Road member who watches The Real World, but the premier last night had a good example of this (spoiler coming for all of you closet fans).

    One of the cast members got in a drunken fight and took a punch to the eye. He was on the ground, but his head didn't hit it. He went home with a wicked shiner and they finally convinced him to go to the ER. The doctor did what looked like a CT and found out that that thin bone on the side of his eye was totally caved in. He said there was also some chance of permanent damge, both cosmetically to his face and also to his vision.

    Not fatal, but it was just one punch and it was good reinforcement that fights in the world don't have much in common with those in typical movies.
     
  16. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    And thick neck muscles :evil:
     
  17. GRB

    GRB member

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    Oh come on now, that didn't even happen in the USSR or East Germany.
     
  18. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

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    If people don't want to defend themselves when they're attacked, I guess that's a right they have. I just don't understand their reasons, they don't talk like Ghandi, they talk like little kids, 'that's cheating, that's not fair, that's not even', but they use bigger words, 'proportional' 'reasonable' 'escalation'.

    If you're a pacifist out of higher enlightenment, then I get it.

    If you're not going to defend yourself from physical attack to the best of your ability out of fear of someone else's rules, then I'm sorry, but - I don't respect your choice. I respect your right to make it, but I think you're a fool.

    And I hope to god these aren't the same people who ADVOCATE carrying firearms when in the wilderness, for protection against animals. That would be too much hypocricy for me little noggin.
     
  19. 49hudson

    49hudson Member

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    I am going on 70 yrs old, have bad lungs, high BP, and heart trouble.
    Unless I get sucker punched, the BG is going to be perforated until he calms down!
     
  20. ExtremeDooty

    ExtremeDooty Member

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    A lot of the same for me Hudson, although only in my 50's. Add to that a hip replacement and retreat is not much of an option. I did train in Martial arts and I know how damaging single blows can be. I consider any physical threat a life threatening situation and will act accordingly. Sometimes, engaging in "just a fist fight" or retreat are just not options for all of us.
     
  21. Travis McGee

    Travis McGee Member

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    How is it going to play to the grand jury has to be a big part of the calculus. You have to be able to convince them "I was in fear for my life." The solo guy who comes at you with his fists had better have a big edge in age, size and strength over you if you draw down on him. If it's a group of thugs, and they approach you in a menacing and threatening way, you will have an easier time convincing the jury about your fear for your life.
     
  22. TheDutchman

    TheDutchman Member

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    Yeah I saw the Real World Austin episode where the guy from Boston got clocked. Lessoned learned don't talk crap to a Texan.
     
  23. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    I don't have time for that.

    Isn't that exactly the same as saying that if I throw you off of the Empire State Building, it's hitting the ground that kills you? It's a meaningless distinction. The punch was the direct cause of the head striking the pavement.
     
  24. SteveS

    SteveS Member

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    I would agree, but it depends on the circumstances.


    If you want to claim self-defense, you have to show both that you were in imminent fear for your life (or serious bodily harm) and that fear was "reasonable." The first component is relatively easy to show. As for the second, many factors come into play, but the facts and specific circumstances will have to show that your fear was reasonable. If I shoot a 90 year old woman in a wheel chair that was yelling at me because I thought she was going to perfrom a secret ninja death touch, I doubt I would convince many people that my fear was reasonable.

    I think it is fair to say that unarmed person could cause a reasonable person to fear for their life, but it all depends on the circumstances (size of the person, size of the victim, distance, and any threats).
     
  25. Specialized

    Specialized Member

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    To put a finer point on SteveS's post, the other factor that the courts will look at is disparity of force -- if someone your size, unarmed, punches you, the law usually holds that you have the capacity to defend yourself successfully from being beaten to the point of grave bodily harm or death, and are therefore able to counter the attack with like force. If he's 6'5", 275lbs, and you're 5'7", 130lbs, you'd have a lot better case. There are other factors, of course (training, conditioning, mental state, etc), but it's going to be a factor.
     
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