Another Small Town Western Shooting

Status
Not open for further replies.
X-Rap

X-Rap

Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Messages
6,657
People in the country have good caring hearts, these folks came back to this guy to offer help and he pulled a gun as soon as they pulled up. Bad situation when the man and driver has a gun to his head.
The trivial reason that the killer shot them is unbelievable but should offer some insight as to what we in the public may face at times.
I guess aside from never helping anyone this is plenty reason for us all to be armed, might not have saved the man but if either or both of the women were armed they could have put this low life down.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/su...-shooting-unaware-parents-are-dead/ar-AAdJcmy
 
The main takeaway: A bad thing happened to a good Samaritan.

The knee jerk reaction: Treat everyone as hostile. Help no one.

The best part what humanity I do possess: Keep doing good. Keep bringing light to the world. To stop doing good acts because they sometimes end this way is to play into the idea that "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." This was an ambush; even with heightened awareness after it started, there's a very distinct disadvantage in being on the receiving end.

Still, I will no sooner stop helping people in need than I would stop swimming in the ocean because there might be sharks, or stop riding a bicycle because a car might hit me, or stop jogging because I can't bring my Glock. To let fear overrule exploring the world and finding understanding in humanity is to become the worst of ourselves. Easy, but hardly worth the effort.
 
Still, I will no sooner stop helping people in need than...
Click to expand...
That's not the issue. The question is how to help people in need without walking into a trap set by people who want to appear to be people in need.

That is not an uncommon ploy.

There are safer ways than what these victims did.
 
Folks.. THEY WERE NOT 'Good Samaritans'.

Read the Bible folks. The 'good Samaritan' found the guy half beaten to death. The 'good Samaritan' had people in his caravan with him (no doubt armed.) The 'good Samaritan' took the incapacitated victim to a inn.

In no way did the 'good Samaritan' go unarmed NOR turn his back in a person capable of killing him.

Way to may people take this 'good Samaritan' shtick to mean you just leave yourself open to being attacked and trust in the All Mighty. That is bull.

The people who were murdered had no way to defend themselves even though they could have brought their own gun (Wyoming allows anyone to carry if they meet legal requirements to own guns.)

They failed to do that and died as a result.

Deaf
 
Way to may people take this 'good Samaritan' shtick to mean you just leave yourself open to being attacked and trust in the All Mighty. That is bull.
Click to expand...

Being about the furthest from a bible literalist as one could get, I meant to refer to the more colloquial definition "a charitable or helpful person (with reference to Luke 10:33)."

And certainly, being a good person or a bad person or an odd person or a bald person is divorced completely from the level of common sense one possesses. The two aren't even close to correlated, let alone mutually exclusive. I'm definitely not saying to dispense completely with situational awareness. What I am saying is that one incident will not change my approach of having a cautious level of faith in my fellow humans, and wanting to do good where it is needed and can reasonably be done.
 
What I am saying is that one incident will not change my approach of having a cautious level of faith in my fellow humans, and wanting to do good where it is needed and can reasonably be done.
Click to expand...
One incident? Suppose that law enforcement officers, police reports, corrections officers, and incarcerated criminals told you that posing as stranded motorists has become an increasingly common way of trapping unaware victims and subjecting them to criminal violence?

I first became aware of it in 1966. There were four bad guys who intended to attack a friend of mine, his fiancee, and me--we had stopped to help people in a stopped car on a rural highway. As it happened, and purely by luck, I got the upper hand--violently. We learned something.

"Wanting to do good"? Sure, we all do. But what would you have done differently from the victims in this case to protect yourself against the faking murderer with the rifle? How would you have employed "situational awareness" to effect a better ending, once you had decided to stop and approach them?

Not for me, not in this day of cell phones and readily dispatched emergency help. I can summon better help than I can provide without becoming a visit.
 
psyopspec,

I wasn't aiming that post at you (in fact I had not read it yet before I posted.)

But I'm a General James Mattis man (read up on him folks.. he is the real A team.)

I will smile, I will speak softly, I will be polite and help them, but I most certainly will be armed and aware, for I will have a plan if things go south.

Deaf
 
Kleanbore

Suppose that law enforcement officers, police reports, corrections officers, and incarcerated criminals told you that posing as stranded motorists has become an increasingly common way of trapping unaware victims and subjecting them to criminal violence?
Click to expand...

Criminals sometimes pose as repairmen, salesmen, or even victims of the very crimes they perpetrate. Doesn't mean I don't occasionally hold my nose and interact with someone trying to sell me something. Context has everything to do with it too. In/around Boston or other large cities I'd be very unlikely to do this. Having grown up in an adjacent midwestern state to where the incident took place, yeah, I have to say I'd be more likely to help a stranded motorist. Even then, context matters–a blizzard for example makes it more likely; middle of the night, probably less so. I realize it runs counter to a lot of the AAR comments around here to do this, but I'm essentially saying that could have been me.

But what would you have done differently from the victims in this case to protect yourself against the faking murderer with the rifle? How would you have employed "situational awareness" to effect a better ending, once you had decided to stop and approach them?
Click to expand...

In my first post I called it an ambush where, like most ambushes, the one on the receiving end was at a significant disadvantage. That means one thing. Get off the X, most probably by trying to get out of the way of the muzzle or controlling it; seek cover, return fire, mash the gas. And, to be ambushed and survive is ultimately as you said, "purely by luck." (Note: It's harder to give a more detailed answer here to the tactics employed by the assailant, as the article appears to have been significantly shortened.)

What would I have done differently? Well, hopefully my radar would have pinged before the guns came out. If it didn't, I likely would have suffered the same fate.

Deaf thanks for clarifying, and apologies for any confusion on my part.
 
Last edited:
Criminals sometimes pose as repairmen, salesmen, or even victims of the very crimes they perpetrate...
Click to expand...
Yes, that come up here often, many times in the context of how to answer the door.

...I have to say I'd be more likely to help a stranded motorist.
Click to expand...
In the context of this thread, it would appear that you mean to say that you would be likely to decide to approach what you think to be a stranded motorist?

That means one thing. Get off the X, most probably by trying to get out of the way of the muzzle or controlling it; seek cover, return fire, mash the gas.
Click to expand...
What a wonderful kettle of fish into which one might have elected to jump....

One really does not want to be wrestling with muzzles or "returning fire" due to having made a serious error in judgment.

What would I have done differently? Well, hopefully my radar would have pinged before the guns came out.
Click to expand...
If it is a trap, don't you think his gun is most probably already "out"?

If it didn't, I likely would have suffered the same fate.
Click to expand...
That would seem to say the a better strategy would be called for.
 
In this era of technology, cellphones are ubiquitous. They can call their own towtruck. Sitting on the side of the road isn't in peril, it's inconvenienced.

Now if i see a wreck happen, sure I'll stop and call, help if I'm able. Those people might actually be in peril.
 
not ashamed to say i don't stop and help anyone unless it's a little old lady. too many psychos out there.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy
Theodore Robert "Ted" Bundy (born Theodore Robert Cowell; November 24, 1946 – January 24, 1989) was an American serial killer, kidnapper, rapist, and necrophilewho assaulted and murdered numerous young women and girls during the 1970s and possibly earlier. Shortly before his execution, after more than a decade of denials, he confessed to 30 homicides committed in seven states between 1974 and 1978. The true victim count remains unknown, and could be much higher.

Bundy was regarded as handsome and charismatic by his young female victims, traits he exploited to win their trust. He typically approached them in public places, feigning injury or disability, or impersonating an authority figure, before overpowering and assaulting them at more secluded locations.

Be careful out there, some have perfected the skill of luring in the unsuspecting.
 
A police warning relevant the subject from last year:

http://local.nixle.com/alert/5230141/

"...thieves posing as stranded motorists and preying upon the goodwill of others, then robbing them when they offer assistance."

"....unsuspecting victims stopped to help what appeared to be..."

"...Police recommend calling law enforcement when you see a stranded motorist to avoid a criminal opportunity."
Click to expand...

If the posers turn out only to be thieves, the victims will only lose property. In the case cited in the OP, the perp was a murderer.
 
In the case cited in the OP, the perp was a murderer.
Click to expand...
Thing is, so far as we know he just became a murderer at that very moment.
Latest I've seen says he was arrested for theft/burglary and is one of the new illegal immigrants recently granted "legal" status.
What I try to impress upon my loved ones is that we interface with the criminal element on a daily basis and many are just small time thieves trying to get by or some are like Bundy who moved amongst the population freely praying upon those he singled out.
Either way at times we have little indication of when they will snap as happened in Montana or that we have been singled out as with Bundy but there is a fair number of them in the general population and we come into much closer contact with them than we imagine.
 
I can't find a reliable reference, but I recall about 25 years ago several teenagers stopped their car on I-80 east of Cheyenne Wyoming. One stood next to the car waving jumper cables. When a couple tried to help, one of the kids shot and killed them both with a .22 rifle.

I have stopped to aid stranded motorists in Wyoming and Alaska, where cell phone coverage may not be available and if it is, tow trucks are hours away.

But I am always armed and aware. If there is another person with me, they have my six.

I understand these precautions are no guarantee. I have been stranded a time or two myself, including when I discovered that the jack in my Nissan Xterra would not lift the truck enough to remove a flat tire. I was able to extricate myself from this situation (had some 2x6 blocks for firewood), but this 71 year old was grateful for the people who stopped on a dirt road 60 miles from civilization to offer assistance. In 95 degree heat.
 
Last edited:
I wish I could give the perfect solution but I can't. As usual in these scenarios context is critical. I'm almost in the center of Colorado Springs, help is literally minutes away by phone.

But if I were in the middle of New Mexico I think I'd have much more a dilemma and the stakes of being wrong (either way)would be much higher.

I can't say I'd absolutely never stop but there would have to some serious extenuating circumstances.
 
I have been on both sides with regards to needing assistance, as recently as 2 weeks ago I was almost stranded out west of Langtry Tx. because some bandits the night before ripped the gas pump from its base I made it to the next town with a quart to spare, I wouldn't have faulted any of the public for driving by some guy along side the road with a big black shinny bike. Truth is we never know when mechanical fault could take us down and I would really be disappointed if good good people wouldn't stop to at least aid a woman or family in need.
I guess that leads to the other side of the coin, that being the predator that stops and takes advantage of the stranded motorist.
I'm in agreement with those familiar with parts of the country that don't have cell service and a shop may be hours away, just as often those places have little to no shoulder on the road and the broken down vehicle may be stuck half in the lane a bad spot to be in after dark with a dead battery.
 
In the context of this thread, it would appear that you mean to say that you would be likely to decide to approach what you think to be a stranded motorist?
Click to expand...

Sure, that's the gist.

One really does not want to be wrestling with muzzles or "returning fire" due to having made a serious error in judgment.
Click to expand...

Certainly I don't mean to suggest that being the victim of an ambush is in any way preferential to not being the victim of an ambush. If THR did not constrain our language, a past tense form of a naughty word would be my first descriptor for a person who finds him/herself in an ambush. Beyond that I would absolutely maintain that getting out of the kill zone by any means necessary/available is the only possible way to survive, and that the odds are slim.

If it is a trap, don't you think his gun is most probably already "out"?
Click to expand...

It's not clear from the article, and as a rule I tend not to overlay my own made-up facts onto scant descriptions in news stories. Couldn't tell you. If the rifle's out as one pulls up, logic would dictate hitting that accelerator. If it's not, well then any number of things could happen.

That would seem to say the a better strategy would be called for.
Click to expand...

I'm advocating rendering help, cautiously, where one can and if one chooses, while maintaining situational awareness. I'm also acknowledging that sometimes you can do everything right and bad things will happen to good folks anyway. I would call this a mindset more than a strategy, and admittedly my own and no one else's. That said, can you help me understand what you mean by "a better strategy?"
 
If someone REALLY needs help, if they are badly injured or something like that, I'll help them.

This may be cruel, but if someone is on the side of the road with a flat tire and doesn't know what to do, or runs out of gas, or shows up at my doorstep and "needs to borrow the telephone" than I am not going to help them. I think it's each persons responsibility to help themselves first, by being proactive and planning ahead. I don't go out of my way to help ignorant people.

Like I said, if they REALLY need my help, and they need it NOW (bleeding out, etc.) than I'll help them. Otherwise, no.
 
There is no simple course of action to be taught to one who would continue to be predisposed to offer aid to his fellow man.

I have not done it in years, simply because it has been years since I regularly commuted on a highway. These days, I could stop for 100 vehicles and be told by the drivers of 30 of them they'd simply stopped to text. Another 69 would tell me they already had help coming. Those outcomes make it hard for me to keep stopping for that one that does need the type of assistance I could offer.

That being said, when I did do it regularly, my typical course of action was to cruise past the stopped vehicle by about 100 feet, surveying the surroundings as I did. I'd then back up to about 40-50 feet in front of it, step out, and instruct the driver to come close enough to me for us to talk.
 
That being said, when I did do it regularly, my typical course of action was to cruise past the stopped vehicle by about 100 feet, surveying the surroundings as I did. I'd then back up to about 40-50 feet in front of it, step out, and instruct the driver to come close enough to me for us to talk._
Click to expand...

Even this (unless you were a uniformed officer in a marked patrol car) would be a little iffy. I don't know that I'd approach some random stranger who was yelling instructions at me on the side of the road.

I guess it goes both ways
 
Perhaps we have been looking at this too much from the point of view of the good guy with the white hat riding to the rescue.

Consider things from the point of view of a person stopped at roadside for whatever reason--perhaps waiting for a tow truck--when someone approaches the car. Could that someone be about to do something rash? Might the stranded motorist not be a little edgy?
 
Kleanbore said:
Perhaps we have been looking at this too much from the point of view of the good guy with the white hat riding to the rescue.

Consider things from the point of view of a person stopped at roadside for whatever reason--perhaps waiting for a tow truck--when someone approaches the car. Could that someone be about to do something rash? Might the stranded motorist not be a little edgy?
Click to expand...
Not long ago I was driving home from a wedding with two elderly friends in the car. The route involves a long stretch up a dark and winding canyon. My car got a flat tire, despite the tires being at the time only a couple of weeks old. Even though we had an AAA card, there was no way I was going to stop there to wait for them. (And for the record, if I were able to change a tire myself I still wouldn't have stopped there.) I drove all the way up the canyon on the flat, as soon as we hit "civilization" I pulled into an open gas station and THEN we called AAA.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top