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Another stimulus, another gun?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by willmartin, Jan 10, 2009.

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  1. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Smart guys on Wall Street are the ones that got us into this mess. Dumb guys on Main Street will be the ones to dig us out.
     
  2. skoro

    skoro Member

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    hmmmm...

    I've kinda wanted one of those Dan Wesson C-Bobs. Or maybe a double-barrel 12 guage. Decisions, decsions...
     
  3. MGshaggy

    MGshaggy Member

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    No, lack of oversight got us into this mess. The guys on Wall Street did what any hungry investor would do - worked to maximize their returns without regard to its effect on the rest of society. With the exception of a few activist hedge funds, thats just what they do. Do you fauilt Citi or any other TARP recipient for not making more loans with TARP funds when there was no law, regulation, or requirement to do so? That was Paulson's failure, not that of the financial institutions. If someone gives you $1000 with no strings attached and you go buy guns and ammo with it, could they later be justifiably upset with you for not giving half to charity when they didn't require you to do anything to receive the $1000 in the first place?

    And FWIW, the guys on main street may have to do some digging for the errors of Wall Street, but main street benefitted from the housing bubble created by that securitized debt also. Coming on the heels of the burst of the tech bubble in 2000, the US economy needed a boost which it found in the housing bubble. Low rates and the cheap money it bought helped get many new buyers into new homes, cars, consumer goods, and new businesses, but people abused it and many Americans imprudently went into a negative savings rate the last few years. Credit, like a firearm, is only a tool - what is important is whether the person using that tool acts prudently and cautiously with it or whether they use it irresponsibly and with wild abandon.
     
  4. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Sounds like uncontrolled greed, not lack of oversight to me.
     
  5. MGshaggy

    MGshaggy Member

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    Capitalism runs on greed. You control greed and the damage it can cause with laws and regulations. If you don't have those laws and regulations to limit people's actions, don't be surprised when people act on their greed to the detriment of others in an effort to maximize their returns. Hence, I view it as a failure of government. Again, why didn't Citi and other TARP recipients use the TARP money for more loans? They simply weren't required to do so when they accepted the TARP funds. That is a massive failure of government (namely Congress and Paulson).
     
  6. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Now it sounds like fascism, not regulation. I don't consider what happened a failure of government. Its a failure of the people on Wall Street to manage their money in a way that not only maximizes their profit, but also allows for future growth.

    I am a deer hunter. But I don't go out one year and shoot all the deer on my property at once, because I know I will probably want to shoot another next year too. Same applies here. Maybe common sense and ethics need to be stressed more in business school.

    I would prefer that we not attempt to over regulate anything. If the market crashes, let it crash. The economy will sort itself out over the long haul.
     
  7. MGshaggy

    MGshaggy Member

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    You're a deer hunter, but you only take one at a time because thats how you maximize your returns. Take too much meat and its going to go bad, doing nothing for you. Its not quite the same with money; you maximize your current returns so you can reinvest and leverage more for even greater future returns.

    And that sort of the problem - the economy could fail in a massive way, making the great depression look like a walk in the park. Will it eventually sort itself out? Probably, but if it goes that way, the US will cease to be a superpower.
     
  8. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    I think that is likely to be scare tactic being used by failed Wall Street fat cats who simply want a slice of the government dole now that they have failed on their own.
     
  9. MGshaggy

    MGshaggy Member

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    You know LG, the irony here is that you, like most people, have little (if any) experience with Wall Street, structured finance, securitized debt products, SIVs, CDOs, CDSs, swaps, etc, yet you feel completely justified in yelling "greedy SOBs!" at the Wall Street guys who do. My guess is that if you were offered the $5-$10 million (or more) annual salary & bonus some of those guys get you'd act the exact same way as they did.

    As gun owners we get awfully upset when someone who has never owned or fired a gun, and who's entire knowledge of guns comes from TV and the movies, tells us we need more gun control, or what kind of gun control would work best in this country. Yet when it comes to financial system, a lot of people who don't understand the basics of the markets, and only get their info from the 11pm news think they know best. Thats not meant as a slam on you, but if you don't truly understand the how's and why's behind whats moving the market, you can't come up with realistic solutions. "Let the market sort itself out" is not fear mongering or a realistic solution; its a page from the Robert Mugabe School of Economics (you do know who Robert Mugabe is?). For example, you just mentioned getting a slice of the government dole. Can you tell me where the majority of the AIG money went? Can you explain the basic terms of the deal struck by Paulson with AIG? Do you know the interest rates on that bridge loan? I can. In another post I believe you (indirectly) cited subprime loans as a factor in this mess. Can you talk about the implementation of the Community Reinvestment Act under Gramm Leach Bailey and how that deregulation jeopardized the solvency of the FDIC?

    Again, this isn't meant as a flame, but populist sloganeering doesn't make for realistic or prudent economic or fiscal policy.
     
  10. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Yea you are right. Prudent economic policy can only come from the finely tuned mind of the Wall Street managers that crashed the market in the first place. The really disgusting part of it is the disdain which you folks on Wall Street have for the taxpayers who are bailing your asses out.

    I guess this discussion isnt pertinent to the thread anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
  11. 7.62X25mm

    7.62X25mm member

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    The last "stimulus" proved fruitless. The next "stimulus" will not be a check in the mail. It may very well be a tax hike to pay for GM and Lehman Bros.

    I'm sorta thinking that shooting some of these clowns might be "stimulating." :what:
     
  12. DarkCharisma

    DarkCharisma Member

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    I'd like to buy another gun with it, but I'll probably just put it towards a credit card or sock it away into my CD.
     
  13. John828

    John828 Member

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    I went to work and THR was a gun forum, I came home and it was an economics forum. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. But, I just love my guns and the smell of a freshly spent round. I like seeing holes in things too.

    All that said, we might, at least temporarily, need a semi-moderated political sub-forum seeing that the conditions, both political and economical, are susceptible to many changes in this current environment.

    What think ye administrators and moderators? Grant us this boon?
     
  14. MGshaggy

    MGshaggy Member

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    Lone Gunman - I don't have disdain for anyone who didn't deserve it, and certainly not the people on main street getting clobbered by this thing. I do have disdain for the lack of government oversight that got us here though. Much of what went wrong should have been illegal, but was just unethical or stupid. The point is a lot of people are getting hurt badly in this economic crisis and thats only going to breed more calls for help and intervention by the government, and more willingness to give up certain rights for it. And bad economic times tend to bring more crime. More crime always leads to more calls for more gun control.
     
  15. notorious

    notorious Member

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    More government oversight? You don't think the SEC and all the other alphabet soup agencies have enough laws and rules? Just enforce what they got.

    Barney Frank and Chris Dodd said in their 2005 Congressional hearing that they think the banking industry has been sufficiently regulated and they don't want more. Wasn't that when the Wall Streeters were buying up packaged mortgage loans as tradeable investment instruments? Then they get stuck with these worthless pieces of paper from the real estate market.

    When you have liberals saying that, you know it's over-regulated. It's like having a paranoid guy think you're going overboard with your survival training.
     
  16. Kind of Blued

    Kind of Blued Member

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    I need one of these.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. John828

    John828 Member

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    Kind of blued,

    Thanks for "bringing me around" on this thread. That post was like putting some smelling salts under my nose since I just about passed out from all the prior posts.
     
  18. craig

    craig Member

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    "we lost all our money because we were greedy and stupid. now we need your money to save us." :scrutiny:

    they screwed up once, and they'll do it again and they've already started. "we can't track where the current bailout money has went."
    :scrutiny:

    translation, "we got your money, so up yours.":fire:

    let the whole thing crash because the current system is broken.

    harsh medicine, but that's the free market in action. stupid, greedy, and inept companies fail and that covers the majority of the ones begging for money now.

    eta..if i have some extra $$, i'll buy ammo.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2009
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