Another "what a nice world we live in" story...

[camslam]

This is the kind of story that usually gets a nice division of opinion here on The High Road.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/.../02/20/20100220phoenix-beer-run-homicide.html

A man who police said tried to stop a beer run at a Circle K in west Phoenix was shot and killed Friday night.

Lance Taylor, 23, was with his wife and mother in front of the convenience store near 43rd Avenue and McDowell Road about 9 p.m. when a man in his late teens or early 20s entered the store acting suspicious, said Trent Crump, a spokesman for the Phoenix Police Department.

The man, police said, went to a cooler and took two 30 packs of beer and walked toward the exit when Taylor blocked his path and told him to return the beer. Taylor confronted the man because he knew the employees there and wanted to help, Crump said.

The man did what he was told and as he was leaving he took a handgun from his waistband and started waving it and yelling at store employees and Taylor. Taylor backed away from the man and as the man left the store gun in hand, he met with Taylor's wife who was opening the door, Crump said. The man said something to the woman then hit her in the head with his pistol, police said.

After seeing his wife struck, Taylor came up behind the man outside of the store and was shot in front of his wife and mother.

The Phoenix Fire Department treated his wound and took him to St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center but he died of his injuries. Taylor's wife suffered a minor head injury.

Crump said the assailant either fled east on McDowell Road or got into a brown-colored two-door Chevrolet Malibu.

Crump said he is asking anyone with information to call Silent Witness at 480-WITNESS and for Spanish at 480-TESTIGO.

"The arrogance that this suspect showed in this is chilling, and we're asking for the public's help in locating this individual," Crump said.

The man is considered armed and dangerous.

"We need to get this person off the street he shot and killed this good samaritan who was trying to help last night in cold blood," Crump said.

I posted this story as a reminder to all of us that there are bad people out there and we NEED to be prepared for situations that can and do happen. A few observations based on my opinion:

1. What a stupid, tragic, senseless murder and death.

2. This guy (23 year old victim) tried to do the right thing and now he is dead. Although he tried to do the right thing, it is probably safe to say there were things he could have done better. But I give him credit for attempting to stop a theft and not just sit by full of apathy while another criminal did whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, to whomever he wanted.

3. This world is a pathetic place where people will kill someone for a watch, beer, money, a tv, etc... Where is or what has happened to a simple respect for life?

4. I would hope we can avoid the Monday Morning Quarterbacking on this story from all the usual "Boo Birds" here on THR regarding this man's actions.

I for one am glad there are people that still believe in doing the right thing, I just wish they were better prepared and could have made better decisions.

I know these stories usually divide THR into one of two camps and hopefully we can avoid that usual debate and just learn something from this. Everyone has to decide for themselves what is right, what is worth acting on, and how they would act on it. There is no way we'll come to a consensus here, so we may as well file this under whatever heading we want and learn from it.

Stay safe out there.

 

[Sam1911]

A young man is dead over two 30-packs of lousy beer. How incredibly tragic -- and infuriatingly stupid.

Hopefully everyone who reads this will be struck by the clarity of the lesson to be learned from poor Mr. Taylor's tragic choices.

I hope I'm not running astray of the OP's dire words of thread guidance, but there is really only one important lesson to be learned from this:

Never, EVER, under ANY circumstances, DIE for a hunk of merchandise. Even if it's yours. ESPECIALLY if it's someone else's. There are people who count on you. There are people who love you and who need you.

I'm sure Mr. Taylor's wife and mother will cherish the memory of the 60 innocent cans of beer he died attempting to save. Assuredly they'd give anything to have the opportunity to go back and beg him not to play the hero.

Confronting someone who is acting in an obviously asocial or anti-social manner is courting disaster, even death. If you don't have a life-or-death reason to obstruct or confront a purposeful criminal actor, you steer as clear as possible.

Be a good witness, and go home safely!

Always remember that "simple respect for human life" is a fanciful construct of our comfortable, middle-class American, modern lives -- which can be counted upon not one ounce to save your own hide.

The responsibility for your own safety rests in your own mindset, skillset, and toolset. The very first priority is to do nothing to decrease your odds of living to see tomorrow.

-Sam

 

[pikid89]

60 innocent cans of beer he died attempting to save.

according to the OP he wasnt shot when stopping the man for stealing the beer, he confronted the man after watching his wife get hit with the gun

 

[Mags]

Never carry a knife to a gun fight or for that matter just your fists. He sounds like a good man trying to do the right thing, damn shame.

 

[highorder]

Why the hell do I care if someone steals some beer from a convienence store?

I'd have got me, wife, and mom out of there if I felt something strange.

 

[Sam1911]

according to the OP he wasnt shot when stopping the man for stealing the beer, he confronted the man after watching his wife get hit with the gun

If the man had left as planned with the stolen beer he wouldn't have met Mrs. Taylor at the door (probably -- depends on the timing), he wouldn't have had a hand free to hit or shoot her, and -- most importantly -- he wouldn't have been in the agitated state of having been confronted and having already brandished his weapon and threatened the staff and bystanders.

Mr. Taylor's actions were directly causal to his wife's minor injury and his own death.

Some bad things in this world just are. Some bad people will do bad things. If you have neither authority nor ability to stop their unjust actions, don't paint a target on your own chest.

-Sam

 

[Roccobro]

A persons morals have no price tag to them. 30 cans of beer, a pack of gum, or just an insult. This MAN stood up for what he believed was right...TWICE. And then died for it. I hope when my number is up I display something memorable too.

I highly doubt his mother and wife will hold grudges against the beer for this mans courageous actions.

Justin

 

[LibShooter]

Had Mr. Taylor died defending his wife from a blow to the head, that's noble. However he chased a guy known to be armed out the door and into the parking lot. For what? Revenge for hitting his wife? To vent some anger?

He may be brave, but he showed fatally poor judgement that evening. Too bad. And it started over a few dozen cans of beer.

 

[Sam1911]

I highly doubt his mother and wife will hold grudges against the beer for this mans courageous actions.

"Courageous" is in the eye of the be(er)holder. (LOL! What a pun!)

He didn't die saving a child from a burning building. He didn't die in glorious service to his country. He didn't die defending his loved ones.

He died (and nearly got his wife killed) because he was defending someone else's business against a VERY petty theft. (How much does beer, of the low sort that comes in 30-packs, cost per pack? At most $20 total?)

This MAN was a fool, and paid the ultimate price to prove it.

Do you think his wife and mother laud his choice, praise his "courage?" They will bear the loss of his love and fiscal support for the rest of their lives.

Unless he really had NOTHING to live for, this was a poor thing to DIE for.

The FIRST rule is to survive to be there for those that love and need you. There really is no second rule...

-Sam

 

[NOLAEMT]

The FIRST rule is to survive to be there for those that love and need you. There really is no second rule...

-Sam

I like this sam. I think it really does a good job of summing up self defense, with or without a firearm. Every place has different laws, and everyone has different morals, but I think this is something that everyone could probably agree on. (but then again, I've seen some pretty silly arguments before, so perhaps I'm wrong).

 

[camslam]

As usual this has turned into a debate as to whether or not the guy should have acted or not, and what a idiot he is for doing so.

People, as I said in my opening post:

Everyone has to decide for themselves what is right, what is worth acting on, and how they would act on it.

There are those that will applaud this man for standing up and trying to stop a crime.

There will be those that will applaud his confronting a man that had just struck his wife in the head with a gun/weapon.

There will be those that will insist he should have done nothing, been a good witness, called the cops, etc...

If this were to get discussed in S&T here on THR, you will probably get a list of things this guy should have done that he didn't do, including but not limited to the following:
-Never even left his house that night because "something" could have somehow possibly happened.
-Shouldn't have been hanging out at a convenience store or anywhere close to it.
-Should have used verbal judo or its equivalent to talk down the criminal.
-If verbal judo didn't work, use jedi mind trick to disarm and control criminal.
-Should have split the scene the minute they "sensed" something was up.
-Should have smiled at the criminal taking the beer, then help him out the store by getting the door for him, then grab a bag of chips and escort him to his car making sure he got in safely while making sure to not crush the chips.
-Run out of there as fast as was humanly possible, then brag about making such a wise choice in some random internet forum.
-Should have studied everything Jeff Cooper ever wrote, memorized every tactical manual ever published, and then he would been smart enough to not do what he did.
-Etc...

The bottom line for me is this, every person must decide for themselves what is worth putting their life on the line. Gun owners, especially here on THR that advocate taking action in certain situations often get crucified by others. Each person has to draw the line in the sand for themselves. Many will say it is not worth losing your life over 2 packs of beer, and perhaps criminals would start to understand that if they were losing their lives while trying for beer, batteries, food, etc... Would it ever be worthwhile to intervene in any situation? Some will say never, others will say it depends, and some will say most times. Each person must decide what they are willing to do and willing to live with, or even die for.

None of us were there, hopefully none of us will ever be in this type of situation. But this much I do know, no 2 situations are ever the same, the variables, participants, locations, consequences, and results are always going to be unique. Instead of wasting our time judging a man that none of us knows, let's focus on being AWARE and PREPARED if we or our loved ones, or yes, even a stranger in need, is presented with a lethal situation.

Fair enough?

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

If you are armed, go ahead and do the right thing, which is to do what this victim did. THEN, be on your guard afterwards, so that you can respond to the next crime that occurs, and end some criminal twit's actions (like this one in the incident) for good. To fight crime and injustice is extremely "high road". I get pissed first, and scared later.........

 

[alohachris]

"The right thing" - I respectfully disagree.

I don't think it's intelligent to risk one's life over petty theft or wounded pride. The fundemental flaw in right/wrong black/white thinking is that it fails to take circumstances or consequences into account. I doubt his mother and widow will take much comfort from the memory of his ' bravery' when a simple 911 call would have sufficied.

 

[Sam1911]

camslam,

I agree with you that every one of us has to decide for themselves what they will put their life on the line to defend.

Hopefully, Mr. Taylor has provided an object lesson to us all of just how wrong things can go when you don't put enough forethought into that decision.

As the great line from despair.com says, "Perhaps your purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others."

I am so very sorry for his young wife and his mother. And I'm thankful that his rash actions didn't endanger his wife any further than they did. She so easily could have caught a bullet from the beer thief rather than a whack on the head. Lance Taylor was a big brave man standing up to a shoplifter, but if the creep had pulled the trigger on her instead he would have carried to his grave the knowledge that he incited his own wife's murder.

As it is, he gets the easy way out and leaves them behind to deal with his bravery.

Every one of us should spend some time thinking about that before we go do "the right thing."

-Sam

 

[luigi]

The man is considered armed and dangerous.

Ya think?

 

[mrokern]

This is posted in S&T, and you're ticked that it's being dissected?

It's a tragedy, but one that didn't need to happen. He chased a man known to be armed, who was NOT currently threatening him or anyone else. Bad idea. Yes, the crook deserves a painful death...but this didn't need to happen.

Better idea, tend to his injured wife.

YOU DO NOT GET TO DEFEND YOUR HONOR WHEN YOU CARRY A GUN! :banghead:

Nobody ever died from a damaged ego.

-Mark

 

[MrGutsy]

I'll have to agree with Sam1911. As a military firefighter, I may be called upon to put my life in harm's way for someone else's. However, I am not called upon to put my life on the line for a convenient store's or beer company's profits. My carry weapon is only coming out in response to a direct threat upon myself, family member, or in a situation from which there is no safe escape. For those of us who aren't LEO's, we are not trained and it is not our job to chase down shoplifters.

 

[Webbj0219]

Id say he died with honor. He may not have been prepared, but he definetely had some cahones. He must have been a good man

 

[Cosmoline]

I hate to say it, but good or bad is tactically irrelevant. There's only dead and alive.

This episode continues the well established pattern of posturing and verbal confrontations leading to tragedy. Just don't move your lips. Don't confront, don't challenge. Observe. Watch hands. Hands filled with beer are fine. They're not going to shoot you, so let them be. If the subject presents an imminent threat of deadly force, then act with overwhelming deadly force instantly without hesitation or warning. But never challenge or posture. Your lips don't even need to move at all.

It goes without saying that being armed yourself is essential.

 

[uspJ]

that's a sad story.

i have to agree with the majority of the posters so far. i commend teh man for trying to do a good deed, on the other hand his actions led to his own death inho.

i'm not gonna armchair quarterback and say what he should have done that's pretty much been done allready. personally i wouldn't have tried to stop the theft but if someone struck my wife my better judgement may have went out the window, i like to think that i would have had enough self control to recognize that the threat was leaving but i honestly couldn't say unless i was put in that situation.

condolences and prayers to the deceased's family.

 

[earlthegoat2]

There is a big difference between good and evil and there is a pathetically small difference between bravery and stupidity.

On one hand you could reason there was bravery in trying to fight a battle he would most assuredly lose. On the other hand going up against these odds was probably stupid. If he had come out the victor though and the would be thief was the one killed then maybe it would have been interpreted as bravery even though the odds were so long as to justify stupidity.

As they say "the victorious are the ones who write the history books." There are two sides to every story and a hundred interpretations to those stories.

If every man in the world acted the way the man in this instance did then there would be very few criminals out there today. Of course it would cost the lives of many good people in meantime.

 

[shockwave]

Accosting other citizens and interfering with their business can be a risky move. As a coda to this discussion, note that you can degrade Taylor a bit by saying he died for a few 6-packs, but you can also amplify his character by seeing what he did as an act of wishing to live in a lawful society. When people are spraying graffiti, dumping trash roadside, stealing merchandise, they are very much lowering your quality of life. If that's how you feel, then maybe you will chose to get involved.

Second, what if Taylor had been carrying, moved his hand to his piece prior to accosting the punk, and beat him in drawing and firing? Hopefully it'd be on the security cameras, but still the DA might press charges seeing as how he basically generated the conflict from the start. Be a mess, for sure. So there aren't many good outcomes here and the lesson seems to be that you might just want to get the punk's tag number and give it to the clerk, let the cops sort things out.

 

[Sam1911]

If he had come out the victor though and the would be thief was the one killed then maybe it would have been interpreted as bravery even though the odds were so long as to justify stupidity.

And maybe, depending on circumstances and location, he'd have had lengthy court battles, possible jail time and a felony record, and even the not easily dismissed psychological burden of having taken a life.

My family needs me. I'm no good to them dead, and I'm probably WORSE for them in prison, or living life under the crushing load of debt from years of attorney's fees.

So this week I defend the beer. Who will protect my family when someone decides to knock over the stop-and-rob they're in NEXT week, when I'm in jail?

Defensive action is for the gravest extreme. This was NOT the gravest extreme.

If you want to rid the world of injustice and petty theft, swear an oath, put on a badge (and a vest!) and serve your community as a dutiful law-enforcement officer.

As an armed citizen, your duty is to your family and your own security. Forceful action beyond that is foolhardy and quite probably illegal.

-Sam

 

[The Tennessean]

Sad story indeed.

Years ago I was in a Walgreens pharmacy as it was being robbed. Two men ran in, filled a cart and ran out. They were fast, in the store maybe 45 seconds total. No way in hell I am stepping in front of them, for what? $100 in junk from Walgreens? No way.

About a month later I was in the same Walgreens again and it was robbed again, this time a man stuck a knife in the cashier's face and demanded money. I was at the back of the store not even aware what was happening. When I got up to the register the cashier was huddled behind the counter crying, the bad guy was gone.

Long story short, I now avoid that store - in fact I live several states away but even when I still lived in that town I avoided the store. I avoid areas where I know bad things happen. I avoid getting involved unless it's a life or death situation. My life is worth a HELL of a lot more than some stupid junk from the store.

 

[rbernie]

As usual this has turned into a debate as to whether or not the guy should have acted or not

What else is there to discuss that is on-topic for THR? And if that's a viable topic, is it not reasonable to expect that there will be folk on both sides of that question?

I don't understand the protestations over the direction of the thread.

Defensive action is for the gravest extreme. This was NOT the gravest extreme.

If you want to rid the world of injustice and petty theft, swear an oath, put on a badge (and a vest!) and serve your community as a dutiful law-enforcement officer.

As an armed citizen, your duty is to your family and your own security. Forceful action beyond that is foolhardy and quite probably illegal.

Well stated.