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Anti-Moslem Backlash

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Gary H, Apr 6, 2004.

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  1. Gary H

    Gary H Member

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    Ever since 9/11 the media has been full of fundamentalist Islamacist justifying their brutality with their religious beliefs. Islam was forged through war and Moslems have been on one side, or the other in various modern wars . These facts are not lost upon the average American and so it seems to me that the American Moslem would want to publicly clarify these issues and dispel misunderstandings, but few voices have come forward to stand against those proponing violence. Is this my misperception, a failure to report, or is there some reluctance to make public stands against other Moslems, especially folks that prefer to eliminate their opposition? I have also listened to those that suggested that Saudi money in the United States has setup more Wahabi oriented clerics in American Mosques. Is this true?

    This legal forum is ripe with religiously oriented discussions based upon current events, but Islam seems to be a religion greatly interested in stately powers and control over populations. In this sense, discussing Islam is more like discussing politics. What can be said of the American Moslem? Are they attending Wahabi oriented mosques? Do they also tend toward wanting an Islamic style republic? or is the American Moslem more oriented toward the more spiritual side of the teaching?

    I would appreciate any personal, direct observations. The only one that I can make is that I have many pleasant patients of this faith and I have never had a sense of hatred toward myself. They have all seemed to be regular people with normal people successes and problems. Anyone of this faith wish to share answers to some of the above question? Thanks..
     
  2. Quick Draw McGraw

    Quick Draw McGraw Member

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    I think Marko posted a response to a similar question a while back citing a large number of articles in which various muslim groups denounced the 9/11 attacks...

    I'll see if I can find it here...
     
  3. Quick Draw McGraw

    Quick Draw McGraw Member

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  4. Khornet

    Khornet Member

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    Yes, there have been denunciations

    from Muslim figures, and some required real bravery.

    That said, two questions:

    Why don't I get the feeling that most Muslims abhor terrorism? If there are so many millions who don't agree, shouldn't their voices be louder? I'm not talking about some loyalty oath thing, I just think it would be more noticeable than it is.

    Second, assuming the first point is (as I would hope) dead wrong, then why aren't our media folks bringing it to our attention?
     
  5. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    If the vast majority of FOREIGN muslims were truly against terrorism guys like Bin Laden simply could not function openly in their midst. Furthermore they would CERTAINLY be unable to hide among their brethren. The sad fact is that it appears that at least a sizeable portion of the community is standing behind their terrorist 'friends'.
     
  6. Iain

    Iain Member

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    I can't answer either of those questions Khornet. You would think it would be more noticeable, but I have yet to meet a muslim who agrees with terrorism. An old friend of mine in an inner city university went looking for radical Islamic types, he found a few, the 'Britain will be an Islamic state' types and the 'look at the injustices of the West' types. They were a minority.

    Sometimes I wonder if the majority of the muslim population in the West don't speak out against OBL and his like because they themselves see absolutely no link between him and themselves. Much like a modern day Catholic would see no link between himself and those who brought about the St Bartholomew's Day massacre. Just a thought.

    There was a comment by pax on the thread linked to above that bears repeating over and over in the face of the 'Islam is a violent religion' types:

     
  7. Gary H

    Gary H Member

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    I suspect that most people prefer peace to violence. I doubt that most Moslems are any different, but my question really has two parts.

    1. Why isn't this widely reported? I must admit that I don't watch the major networks and I refuse to read the local papers, but I do a good bit Internet reading.. and cable/satellite. The long list of URL's is encouraging (some of which I have read), but I think that there is still the public impression that U.S. Moslems are quiet on this topic.

    2. Is there, or was there a Wahabi movement and money in the U.S. and does it continue? Do Wahabi control a large percentage of U.S. mosques, or is this just anti-Islam rhetoric?

    I'm asking this because I value family, but keep few friends. I never discuss religion with friends, so I haven't any first hand information. My impression has been one of silence. I don't remember mass marches protesting the abduction of the faith. Frankly, I've heard much more about the evils of the right wing fundamentalist American Christians.
     
  8. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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  9. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    Of course, some of those above-linked articles saying Islam doesn't condone terrorism were written in support of theories that the 9/11 attacks weren't performed by Islamic terrorists.

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/wtc-distortion.html

    Some of the articles were taken down later; the URLs are dead links now.

    Some are only tangentally anti-terrorist, and fixated mainly on asserting some sort of victim status for themselves in the wake of the mass murder on 9/11.

    The truth is that while the big pile of Islamic anti-terrorist links looks nice, it doesn't quite say what it seems to say. The picture of Islamic oppositon to terrorism just isn't that rosy. Conversely, the idea of Islam as a religion or "death cult" that is by its very nature terroristic only makes sense if you make a point to not know anything about it. Indeed, if anything Islam would be the hardest religion to reconcile with doing the 9/11 attack, since it quite plainly condemns killing civilians, suicide, and even the specific act of killing with fire.

    Reality is, once again, annoyingly complicated.
     
  10. Eskimo Jim

    Eskimo Jim Member

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    Gary,
    I sure haven't heard many Islamic leaders denouncing the terroristic actions that some of their fellow worshippers engage in and encourage.

    I don't know if that's because there aren't many doing the denouncing or if media outlets don't report it. Their silence is deafening.

    I wish that more Islamic leaders would denounce terrorism, etc. It would make me feel better and help convince me that the majority of muslims are peace loving people.

    It appears to me that whenever an Islamic leader makes the news it is because he is denouncing US actions and calling for more attacks against US troops, civilians, Israel etc.

    -Jim
     
  11. fix

    fix Member

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    Well they are in between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they have fellow Muslims who will attack them for taking the side of the infidels. An on the other hand, they have a rather large segment of our society that has been looking for a good excuse to persecute them for a while, but has slowly forgotten them and returned to their rightful place in front of the boob tube. Maybe being quiet is the safe thing to do.
     
  12. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    but...

    One might also ask why more Americans don't publicly decry creeping socialism and the progressive encroachment on our civil liberties? Is this from indifference, tacit support of the process, or a lack of awareness of present and future consequences?

    Meanwhile, we have our own internal cultural pundits who find themselves at odds, morally and politically, with many of the manifestations of our culture. I'm talking, for example, of people troubled by the march of secularism. They might, in many ways, have more in common with the average Muslim than Ted Kennedy or Howard Stern.

    The Moslem-West dance is indeed a complex one, and it will require time, patience, and subtlety as well as resolve and strength.
     
  13. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    A few random thoughts in no particular order:

    --80% of mosques in the US are controlled by Wahabists clerics. The Wahabi sect was founded in the land of Arabia at about the same time as the US was founded on north america. Saudi money is the key component to the growth of Wahabism through out the world in general and the US in particular. Shut down the flow of money and a good part of the problem disappears.

    --No doubt part of the Islamic (not Islamist) comunity feels threatened by Wahabi goons. If the mosque is the center of social activity for the community then you can count of social pressure to shut up and play the good Islamist (death to the honkey, etc.).

    --A failure to integrate into American society is a the heart of the failure of the Islamic community to draw a distinction between the Islamic community and Wahabist goons.

    --A separate, isolated community is a mild version of what we here in flyover country call a "ghetto." Ghettos have several sociological fallout factoids which are relevant. It makes it easier to persecute members of a ghetto when members of the "community" voluntary segregate themselves from the dominant society. Second, ghettos guarantee the development of some form of organized crime. Crime can be garden variety crooks or it can e sophisticated forms such as religio-political movements like Wahabi Islam.

    --It takes someone of unusual character and moral strength to stand up in the middle of a ghetto and say, "I disagree with everything we believe here in the 'hood." That person is immediately subject to all kinds of social pressure at a minimum and to criminal action at the worse.

    --I'm not the least surprise at the comparative lack of support of the US in the US Islamic community. I will however continue to wait for the"Allah Bless America" parade.
     
  14. dwkennedy

    dwkennedy Member

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    According to some figures I looked up on the Internet, there are about 1 million Muslims in the United States. If only 1% supported terrorism, that would still be 1,000 people. And it would take only one or two to conduct some pretty serious terrorism (take Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols as an example.) But there doesn't seem to be much in the way of domestically produced Islamic terror in the US. All the 9-11 bombers were recently arrived from overseas, mostly Saudi Arabia, right?

    People who are predisposed to dislike Muslims may conclude they're all just well-disciplined terrorists, waiting for the right moment to strike.

    I am not sure how much we can assertain about the mindset of the American Muslim by studying the media. Look what a fine job they've done illuminating the defensive uses of firearms, versus the criminal abuses...
     
  15. VNgo

    VNgo Member

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    I've given the issue some thought, and my conclusion is that most Muslims are peaceful people and would not resort to terrorism against "infidels". However, their nonviolence is due to personal squeamishnes rather than a moral constraints; they have no real objection to killing infidels per se, but don't have the stomach to get their hands dirty. Hence, they are upset at the death and destruction caused by the actions of their extremist fellow believers, but ultimately agree that the terrorists' objectives -- convert the world to Islam by any means necessary, death to infidels -- are right and proper.
     
  16. SodaPop

    SodaPop member

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    There really isn't such a thing as "An American Muslem".

    95% of Moslems that have come to this country follow the American dream and leave the theology in the rear view mirror. The vast majority of women I see in their head dresses are usually Nation of Islam people. :rolleyes:

    Most don't speak up because they feel more attached to America than they do to some Moslem in Iran.



    And they have no credibility.


    Any anti-Islamic backlash in this country would probable kill more Hindus and Sikhs than Arabs. Two Sikhs were killed in Philadelphia shortly after Sept 11th.
     
  17. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    I'm going to let this continue against my better judgment purely because it has so far been such a reasonable and thought-provoking exchange, with no one calling for death to all Muslims and no one trying to claim Islam is perfect.

    Please continue to make me proud.

    That is all.
     
  18. fix

    fix Member

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    Bingo.
     
  19. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    Another facet to consider:

    Muslim immigrants and their descendants have been conspicuously absent as far as participants in terrorist activities. At least insofar as media coverage is concerned... and it is hard to believe that "crazy Muslim immigrants" wouldn't make for headlines that would sell. On the other hand, American converts to Islam have been conspicuous in their involvement in terrorism, the most obvious being:

    Abdul Hamid (originally John Walker, fought for Taliban)
    John Allen Mohammed (originally John Allen Williams, DC "sniper")
    Asan Akbar (originally Mark Fidel Kools, attacked fellow soldiers in 101st Airborne with grenades)

    Furthermore, countries we consider "Middle Eastern Allies" (Egypt, Saudi Arabia) have been far more involved in recent terrorist attacks against the United States than our supposed enemies (Lybia, Iran, Syria, Iraq).
     
  20. Iain

    Iain Member

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    Zealous converts I guess Sean. Met a few of them back at university, the college I attended was very christian in it's ethos and attracted christians of all persuasions. Those that I met that were converts, especially since arriving as freshers, were the most enthusiastic.

    "Furthermore, countries we consider "Middle Eastern Allies" (Egypt, Saudi Arabia) have been far more involved in recent terrorist attacks against the United States than our supposed enemies (Lybia, Iran, Syria, Iraq)."

    This part is interesting. Further indicates to me that there are more complex explanations for the phenomenon than it being purely about Islam. Am I right in saying that, Iran aside, the list you have given of 'supposed enemies' are not particularly theocratic states? Whether that is relevant or not I don't know. I would increasingly worry about attaching any 'ally' status to Saudi Arabia, I'm not too keen on the House of Saud regardless of their religion.
     
  21. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    Well, I left off the purely theocratic Taliban in Afghanistan, but they were hosts rather than participants. Egypt has a secular government, as did Iraq and Syria. Lybia was a kind of wierd "Islamic/communist/cult of personality" thing that is hard to categorize. Saudi Arabia is a religiously fundamentalist monarchy, and Iran is an outright theocracy with democratic window-dressing. Kind of a mix on both "sides," but events make the distinction look pretty artifical anyway.
     
  22. MPFreeman

    MPFreeman Member

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    Middle east Muslims comprise roughly 8% of world's population, 2% of economic activiy of world and 65-70% of all terrorist activity in the world.

    Terrorists are not corrupting a peaceful religion. They are devout individuals who act out what they read in their scriptures.

    This is blatantly obvious for those who have read the islamic scriptures. It is the unspoken sixth pillar of the faithful, jihad.
     
  23. TaurusCIA

    TaurusCIA Member

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    A "friend" can be more dangerous than the enemy...They can get inside your defenses without any notice.
     
  24. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    I suspect the whole issue is like this.

    Lets say your a patron of a local bar(islam), you and your buddies just wanna go to the bar and have a drink or two and chill and get away from your troubles. Even if there are some drunken idiot college kids who grew up spoiled and stupid wanna get tanked and go pick fights, that doesnt mean YOU want to aswell right? Its just a bar right? Well you could tell'em they've had too many but is it your place? Do you really wanna deal with it, possibly get into a fight over stupid stuff..or would your rather just bite your tongue and relax.

    Dont judge these guys by -OUR- cultural standards. They have different words for bravery, commitment, honor and love. Just because somone doesnt talk about it doesnt mean it dont exist. Sorta like a drunken uncle who does drugs? Everyone hears about how he does all this crazy stuff, but nobody says everything and sorta just tries to avoid the whole thing.



    I could be wrong, I'm just a Coyote *** do I know.
     
  25. Quick Draw McGraw

    Quick Draw McGraw Member

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    Well...I think if the idiot kids moved up from picking fights to killing people I'd feel a little more provoked to do or say something...

    The drunken uncle that does drugs...I dunno, I kinda hope I would say something to him, especially if the drugs/drunkenness was hampering his family life or his ability to hold a job (if he hasn't retired yet).

    You are right in implying that just because the muslim community isn't overwhelmingly coming down on terrorism doesn't mean that they necessarily support it, but it sure seems like they could clear up a lot of doubts and misconceptions if they did come down on it more forcibly and prevelently (sp?).
     
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