Anti-Moslem Backlash

[KaceCoyote]

I cant say I dont -really- wish that they'd do something about all of this violence. I cant say I wouldnt have a profound respect for them if they did but....I cant blame them for being scared. I'm not in their shoes, I wont pretend to call them cowards or whatever. They have another culture, with its own values. I'm sure they're doing what they think is right.


I dont agree...but its what they believe is right.

 

[Standing Wolf]

So much more sensible and easier to be an atheist.

 

[Zundfolge]

Dont judge these guys by -OUR- cultural standards. They have different words for bravery, commitment, honor and love.

I'm sorry, but regardless of anyone's "cultural standards", killing innocent children is evil and if you aren't willing to condemn evil then you promote it.

I don't buy this hogwash that all cultures should be considered equal and that just because something is wrong here doesn't mean we should consider it wrong in another culture.

Killing children, raping women/children, "female circumcision", slavery ... these are all things that are considered "okay" in other cultures ... that doesn't make them less wrong and less evil.

 

[Atticus]

They are silent for many reasons- all of them being Israel.

 

[SodaPop]

I don't buy this hogwash that all cultures should be considered equal

They aren't and neither are all religions.


I've never read anyone on this board compare Mohammed to Ghandi, or Mohammed to Jesus or Mohammed to Buddha.

So much more sensible and easier to be an atheist.

True atheism is a religion.

I think they've got a pretty good track record of being violent and oppressive too.

Terrorists are not corrupting a peaceful religion. They are devout individuals who act out what they read in their scriptures.

If you want to go down that road you're going to get into fights between literal translations of the Bible vs. Koran and they tend to go absolutely nowhere because most refuse to acknowledge that the writings weren't written in the same style and cultures.

In response to what you said here:

Terrorists are not corrupting a peaceful religion. They are devout individuals who act out what they read in their scriptures.

This is blatantly obvious for those who have read the islamic scriptures. It is the unspoken sixth pillar of the faithful, jihad.

Its better to just say something "These terrorists are not corrupting a peacful religion, they are true followers of the violent Prophet Mohammed who founded the religion."

Does anyone want to debate that?

 

[brookstexas]

Read the Koran!

I think you should make up your own mind. Remember the Koran is considered the DIRECT word of Allah and taken as such.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/
Understanding of their "Book" can help understand their mindset.
Note: "People of the book" refers to Christians and Jews. Now before someone points out the Christian bible has all sorts of similiar things I know. I discount it as a moral guide also. It has nothing to do with understanding the moslem mindset. They have very little difference in the way it's interpreted. Now back to the world war between cultures....
Do a few keyword searches-

THE DINNER TABLE:
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.


[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

BT

 

[MPFreeman]

Sodapop,

I'll agree that Islamic founder used violence to establish the religion. No doubt.

I'll match literal translations of the teachings of Christ verses the literal teachings of Muhommed. Especially when it comes to advocating violence against one's enemies. Islam is not a 'love your enemy' world view.

If you want to take the Islamic scriptures seriously, you have to accept violence as a method for obtaining paradise.

Luckily, materialism and postmodern thought will cool the Islamic hold on most.

Gary H,

There are reasons why many noble organizations were founded and started based upon Christian thinking, such as the Humane Society, the Salvation Army, Hospitals galore, et. al.

And why do sects such as Quakers and numerous other pacifists spring up and thrive out of Christian soil and not Islamic soil.

 

[Hedger]

Fanatics R' Us

I don't really see the question as "Islam v. The West". I see it more as fanatic individuals using religion, of any flavor, to control or assert their will over large groups of people. History is full of it, we are just getting the latest installment and it happens to be Islamic fundamentalists.

Fanatics are fanatics, fungible to some extent. They will rely on whatever means they have at their disposal to assert their will and control, religion, political dogma, terror, whatever.

I don't think someone is evil because they follow the teachings of Islam. I do, however, think there are many fundamentalist folks in Iraq and Palestine that need to have their thinking caps readjusted one way or another. Training young people to strap on TNT and act as homicide bombers or hijack planes and use them to kill innocent people is simply sick, and those individuals who foster such actions, whatever their "religion", need to be brought to justice. Not because of their beliefs, but because of their actions against humanity.

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

There are religious extremists in each of the Big 3. What separates the fervor is western civilization. That is one of the threats to the jihadists. Westernized civil society will make their position less powerful.

I do not wish to debate religions and the debate is likley to degenerate. Most do not have sufficient knowledge of Islam to form a proper opinion. Focus on the cultural and political aspects.

The political aspect is very interesting. The governments in the ME range from religious monarchies to cults to dictatorships. Oppressed people tend to strike at the oppressor and the enabler. A very sophisticated order has arisen using Islam as the root and the coalescing criteria, but terror as the weapon. The west is the enabler because of our purchase of petroleum which props up the monarchis, cults and dictatorships.

The cultural aspects follow on the religion to some extent. Whereas we view religion as providing guidelines for living, and pick and choose as we go because of our western lifestyle. Freedom does that to people. Islam is a more demanding creed and is viewed as the rules. Without freedom, the oppressed seek solace in what they can; in this case Islam. Just as the poor and minorities in this country tend to gravitate to religion.

Then there are the power barons. Power is the corruptor and it is easy to incite malevolence in this explosive situation. People like UBL, Arafat, Hamas, etc. prey on the gullible to act out in violence against perceived enemies using selective interpretations of the Koran. They do not practice this themselves, but hide behind walls and in caves and exhort others to do the bidding. Just as our leadership hides and exhorts. There is a common thread, it is only the means, motives and results that differ.

This is a very complex mix of stuff, and explosive at times. Just remember that a few bad ones can spoil the entire bushel.

 

[Gary H]

I was hoping for posts without "them" and "their", but rather with references to "me" and "us."

Certainly we must have some active Moslems to provide information, or is silence in some way necessary. For example, is there Wahabi influence in the local mosques? What is the behind the scenes conversation with regards to fundamentalism? This response is much like the response to picking a woman's firearm..only the men respond.

Not asking for personal justification of anything...just some first hand experience with what is going on in your local mosque.

Maybe it is overly much to ask because of possible criticism.. don't know.

 

[HBK]

If you need evidence to condemn Islam as a violent, wicked religion, all you need to do is read the Koran.

 

[Marko Kloos]

Oh, please. Don't make me start posting Bible quotes. I can post three or four pages of stuff straight from the Bible that would make Christianity look like a definite contender in the "violent and wicked religion" sweepstakes.

Sure as daylight, we'd have plenty of believers jump in right afterwards and explain all the cited passages "in context", while others still would tell me that I lack the spiritual insight as an unbeliever to understand the quoted passages. At the very least, I'd have some of the resident clergy and devout believers attempt to educate me on what they would perceive as misrepresentations.

Why do you think it would be different if you did the same with the Koran on a message board that has an equal number of "average" Muslims on it?

This is not a "slam on Christianity", just a reminder that most of the world's religion's Holy Books have passages in them that can be seen as less than flattering by the non-adherents of that religion. Islam cannot claim differently, but neither can Christianity. (Need I remind you that Bible verses were used to justify slavery a scant two hundred years ago, for example?)

True atheism is a religion.

Horse hockey. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in a god, or gods. It lacks any of the traditional five aspects of religion. Atheism has no doctrine, ritual, or scriptures. Like the quote goes, "if atheism is a religion, then baldness is a hair color."

If you stretch the definition of "religion" so far as to include atheism, then you render it meaningless, because then just about any group of people sharing a common characteristic would be classified a "religion."

Oh, and HBK: you realize that you are enjoying the hospitality of a Muslim when you post to this board? How do you feel about using his own nickel to denigrate his personal faith?

 

[SodaPop]

Horse hockey. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in a god

You said the word "belief".

 

[Iain]

I'd like to say:

7.62FMJ - I really admire that last post of yours. There has been a trend amongst some to absolve us of all responsibility, we don't have too much of late but the Middle East has been a experimentation ground and Empire, particularly for my country. That doesn't mean I bear personal blame for 9/11, nor anyone else here, but more that there are more complex factors, social, political etc, than just Islam.

To return to the thread title - has there been an anti-Muslim backlash in the States? There was a drama shown here the other night, told the story of a guy who had been involved in the Far Right getting involved again. He was dubious because of the fights and the way that no-one ever used to listen to them, the character of the top man in the 'Party' (thinly veiled BNP) said:

"Not like that any more. Assylum seekers and immigrants opened the door for us, 9/11 kicked it off it's hinges."

To return to a thought I stated in my first post and have been thinking about since - the lack of apology and distancing from mainstream muslims because they see vast distance between themselves and the terrorist extremists already. The Christian Church is made up of very divergent groups, many of whom fail to recognise the others as christians at all, certainly the old 'evangelical churches' I was taken to as a kid had no time at all for Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. So if a radical sect in Spain start trying to drive out all muslims after the rail bomb and using the 'Reconquest' of Spain about 600 years ago as their guide - would your local congregation feel in any way responsible? My parents church probably wouldn't.

An aside - atheism might not be a religion, but I find it takes as much work as being religious, especially when relatives regard you as a 'prodigal' waiting to be returned to the flock.

edited to add - I am really glad this thread has been left open despite one or two aberrations, it's an important topic and my thanks to all who have participated in that spirit.

 

[Gary H]

No Muslim willing to engage the topic is informative itself.

No Muslim THR member willing to inform us as to the involvement of the Wahabi in the leadership of local mosques, nor willing to give some insight into the point of view regarding violent attacks upon the U.S. and the West.

Marko Kloos:

Your post makes sense, but the topic would involve questioning the bible and local churches should the planes used on 9/11 have been hijacked by Cypriot Fundamentalist Christians, or the equivalent Catholic in a sort of Christian jihad.

 

[fix]

Oh, please. Don't make me start posting Bible quotes. I can post three or four pages of stuff straight from the Bible that would make Christianity look like a definite contender in the "violent and wicked religion" sweepstakes.

I'll take you up on that. Christianity is about the New Testament. You can post all you want from the Old Testament, but that has little to do with Christianity other than historical reference. There were no Christians before Jesus. They were Jews. Post some quotes that show Jesus advocating violence in His name. Go ahead, I dare ya. Heck, I'll even settle for one of the Apostles.

Again, I'm not saying that Muslims are all to blame for this. I take the same view as 7.62FMJ. I'm just sick and tired of the [whiney voice] "but Christians do it too" [/whiney voice] argument.

 

[cloudkiller]

Today I wondered...

Today I wondered if perhaps moslem extremists viewed military dictators such as Mubarak, Musharraf and Hussein as being part of the "western problem". Basically these dictators would be viewed as a sign of Western influence in their politics and economies etc.

It is just a thought.

Insofar as why more people don't speak out, it is more complicated that it appears. I don't recall millions in the US protesting every time US foreign policy led to the death of thousands of innocents as we supported some oppressive regime in Central or South America. For a long time the Christians in the US that rose up against lynchings and slavery were in the minority, and who, if anyone, picketed all of the conservative christian churches in the south who taught that such killings and enslavement were consistent with the faith? Most people fear being marginalized by their opinions, and prefer to stay uninvolved. Others will support tyranny such as 9/11 as part of a larger social outcry. It is disgusting and tragic, but true.

 

[pax]

"My god can beat up your god!"

Not on THR, he can't.

For you Christians feeling smug: Psalm 137:9, Exodus 32:25-29, Luke 14:26.

pax

What such people miscall their religion, is a vent for their bad humours and arrogance. -- Charles Dickens