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"Antique Firearms"

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by War Squirrel, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. War Squirrel

    War Squirrel Member

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    So it is my understanding that certain weapons that meet the "antique firearms" definition in the NFA are exempt from regulation, if they utilize one of the categories of primitive ignition systems, no fixed cartridges, and were manufactured before 1898 or a replica thereof. This is why we can own bronze and iron cannons, black powder mortars, .60 cal flintlocks and such, regardless of bore diameter, etc.

    So how does this affect modern muzzleloaders which are not replicas of anything, such as a Thompson Center .54 caliber inline muzzleloader?

    Or, what if someone built something unquestionably modern, say, a dead-nuts replica of a M777 howitzer, but designed for muzzleloading and an antique ignition system?
     
  2. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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  3. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    The definition of "antique" for Title II purposes (NFA) is different from the definition of "antique" for Title I purposes. This can be a trap for the unwary. (I don't have time right now to research and explain the difference.)
     
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  4. SC45-70

    SC45-70 Member

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    If a firearm does not use fixed ammunition (that is available through regular commercial channels) and has a match lock, wheel lock, flint lock or percussion ignition system it is an antique regardless of when it was made. If it fires fixed ammunition (that is available through regular commercial channels) and was made in 1898 or earlier it is an antique unless it meets the definition of an NFA weapon. 1898 and earlier firearms that fire fixed ammunition can not be made into NFA weapons without a tax stamp. The curios and relics lists several firearms that are exempt from the NFA because they were originally made in a configuration that would violate the NFA.

    SC45-70
     
  5. War Squirrel

    War Squirrel Member

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    Okay excellent, thank you.

    Is "fixed ammunition" further defined? Or is there case law supporting it?
     
  6. SC45-70

    SC45-70 Member

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    Title 27 chapter II subchapter B part 478 subpart B-definitions
    Ammunition. Ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm. The term shall not include(a) any shotgun shot or pellet not for use as a single complete projectile load for one shotgun hull or casing, nor (b) any unloaded, non-metallic shotgun hull or casing not having a primer.

    That is the BATFE definition of ammunition.

    SC45-70
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  7. BudgetBucks1

    BudgetBucks1 Member

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    I work in law enforcement and just dealt with this recently. The above posts are correct. All muzzleloaders are considered antique firearms. We recently had a felon shoot another felon with a muzzleloader and kill him and he was not charged with having the muzzleloader. I also recently spoke with the local game warden who deals with this issue all the time and he verified that felons can possess modern muzzleloaders. He also stated that shotgun primers were ok as a form of ignition.
     
  8. wally

    wally Member

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    So how is the tool used relavent? Felon in possession of a firearm is more of a problem than murder? Is the punishment for murder so diluted these days that you need to look for "extra" charges to keep a felon off the streets?

    If felon A killed felon B in self defense inside is own home I'd be OK with it even if he'd used a firearm.
     
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  9. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Some states will classify a muzzle loader as "antique" as far as possession until it's loaded, at that point it becomes a firearm.
     
  10. Hobbja

    Hobbja Member

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    In Wisconsin a felon can't even have a bullet in his possession. No bp, no casings, no primers, certainly no muzzle loaders. While in Minnesota I believe all that you have to do is not have a scope and the muzzleloader must have an external hammer.
    I wanted to get an old Mauser or mosin and make an SBR "antique", I found out fast that's a no-no without a tax stamp so I abandoned ship on that idea, too many regulations for something that is supposed to be an unalienable right.
     
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  11. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    This thread is getting confusing, because the original question related to the definition of an "antique" for NFA purposes.

    Here is the definition, from the official ATF web site:

    "For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."
    For more, including examples, go here:
    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

    The material highlighted in italics, in the quote above, is the difference between the Title I definition and the Title II definition. That means, for example, that a rifle in a standard cartridge caliber, that was manufactured before 1899, is an antique, and unregulated, if it is in its original configuration. But if you chop it, so that the barrel is less than 16" long, it becomes a regulated SBR. You have to file a Form 1, and pay a $200 tax, before doing this.

    Cartridge machine guns in standard calibers are regulated NFA weapons, no matter when they were made. But a Gatling gun is not a "machine gun," because it does not fire more than one shot "by a single function of the firing device." (The crank is considered to fire a series of single shots, unless you attach an electric motor to the crank.) An original Gatling gun actually made before 1899 is an antique, but any Gatling gun actually made after that date (including modern replicas) is a Title I weapon.
     
  12. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    Do you have a reference for this? Some states have odd laws but this seems very odd.
     
  13. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    I took his comments as a statement of fact and not a value judgement.

    Mike
     
  14. Hobbja

    Hobbja Member

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    If I recall correctly New York has that law with bp. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.
     
  15. Dog Soldier
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    Dog Soldier Member

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  16. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    1. The topic of this thread is whether an antique is a "firearm" under either Title I or Title II (or state analogues), not whether it is a "weapon". A knife is a weapon and a concealed knife is a "concealed weapon". Totally independent question.

    2. Arizona is "constitutional" permitless concealed carry state and has been for almost 7 years. We were 3rd after Vermont and Alaska.

    Mike

    PS. That article has so many inaccuracies and contradictions about possession that it would be exhausting to list them all. It is also wrong on making your own firearms:
    Grandpa, or you or I for that matter can make a modern centerfire rifle or handgun without a Federal Firearms License. That statement is just nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  17. Dog Soldier
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    Dog Soldier Member

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    Sorry Mike, you may correct me. I am not like you, I am not a legal expert. Sorry for the mistake. :(
     
  18. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

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  19. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    Sure. Replica muzzle loaders are "antiques" and it doesn't matter what the barrel length is. The problem arises with pre-1899 cartridge guns (those actually made before 1899), which are normally "antiques" but are not "antiques" if they have NFA characteristics such as being short-barreled or being fully automatic. (But they are "antiques" if their cartridges are "not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.") Confused yet?
     
  20. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

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    I was adding my 2 cents in regards to the OP's question about muzzle loaders. I know cartridge firing firearms are different.
     
  21. stoky

    stoky Member

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    It's just gubmint policy, it doesn't have to make sense.
     
  22. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    The Feds drove gunsmith John Bivens out of the business by charging him federal excise tax even though he built muzzleloaders, mostly flintlocks. Back taxes on everything he had ever sold. There were other muzzleloader builders hit with back taxes in the thousands of dollars.
     
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  23. Dog Soldier
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    Dog Soldier Member

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    Very good information Jim. Those of us who have fought the gun grabbers for a long time no the rules of law are only words. The Left well bend these laws to fit their needs. I wish quoting legal verbiage was enough to stop these attacks.:thumbdown:
     
  24. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    I am lot a legal expert either, at least no more than gun enthusiasts, esp. NFA enthusiasts are forced to be. For example, as someone who carries concealed in AZ, I am expected to be familiar with AZ law.

    For me correcting incorrect legal information is important but not at all personal.

    Mike
     
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  25. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

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    That's the key right there, we need to make sure the correct information is what people are getting, not just the ones making threads but the ones doing searches for it down the road. I've corrected several people in the past and I've been corrected in the past too, while it is embarrassing it is important to know we have the right information especially if we give it out to others and they take our word for it.
     

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