Antique gun import from UK?

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Bob88: Did your overseas buddy actually legally inheirit the gun, or property that the gun was found on? If so, there might be some legal recourse for him to legally dispose of the gun through a dealer. Perhaps one of the UK members can speak to firearms inheiritance laws...

I'd take the FFL's story with a grain of salt. He might know what he's talking about, but then again he might be offering his interpretation of a rule. You can always try fill out the ATF Form 6 and see if it gets rejected.
 
No, he's right. the repatration act. I think it was Billy Bob Clinton that passed it. If it was sold to another country, it cannot come back to the US. There are a lot of them floating around in Canada that cannot come back, along with Garands and Carbines. The CMP gets rifles back from countries that had guns on loan from the US Army.
 
Ahhh... understood.

However, one might be hard pressed to get an accurate history of the gun in question, hence my suggestion to fill out the Form 6 anyway.

for example: perhaps the original owner had resident alien status, legally purchased the pistol in the US and legally took it back to the UK before their ownership laws changed.

Lots of "what if" scenarios... I too would hate to see a 1911 end up at the bottom of the ocean
 
Import/Export

Bob,

I have to laugh at this process, as i have just got the opposite to you in that a UK dealer http://www.normanclark.com, who was recommended to me by the police to deal with shipping to you, gave me a quote of £270 to do this. "No problems".

I will go back to him next week with your findings to see what he says about that. However the story gets even better. Once the weapon has been checked, forensics or whatever, then i get it back! "What the hell!!!" i here you say, yes thats right the police shocked the hell out of me as i was walking out saying just pop over sometime to fill in some forms so you can get it back. So i queried the comment some more and found that if, like me, it has been handed down through family then i can simply apply for heirloom status and thats it, its mine to keep at home, no de-activiation or anything working pistol mine legally in UK. I was very confused so clarified this three times. The police then told me that they have never had a case turned down for heirloom status and lots of people in the UK have pistols at home. He then said what they have done to tackle this is NO ammo what so ever is in the UK i.e. there is no .45 calibre legally anywhere in the UK so even when they let me keep it i couldn't use it as no ammo. Whatever at least its safe and won't be destroyed so this gives us time to figure out what to do next.

Still shocked i am going to get it back to be honest but this means we can slow things down and see what the real deal is with getting it to you. I like the suggestion before someone made about approaching the embassy to see if they can help. Maybe i don't know i am in no rush it is going to take a few weeks for claim and the checks to go through so i just going to dig into the rules and the process for import/export of this or even if as you say due to the type of weapon just insn't possible.

We will get there or i will de-activate and mount in cabinet or something, maybe museum but whatever its not being destroyed that is real great news. A great peice of history and a very good, reliable weapon is saved. I guess we are a rare case Bob thats why there is confusion over what to do and how to do it.

Regards
A
 
Another funny is its got "UNITED STATES PROPERTY M1911 A1 US ARMY" so why wouldn't it get let into the US when its your property? Lol, If it was me, I would salute it for duties served as it landed on US soil. I will post again when i find out the form i will fill in to keep it and keep looking for a way to get it to US/Bob. If its turns out to be true that i can't get it to Bob then i will just mount it in my home office, hoping for the day the rules change and it will get to breath cordite again.

thanks for all suggestions so far

Cheers
A
 
There is probably a lot of history behind that old 1911 45. I am so glad that the UK police decided not to shred it up and throw it away. Who knows...that handgun may have helped defend the USA and UK. Can the handgun be sent to France or the Channel Islands? I have heard some of the UK Channel Islands it is legal to own handguns. It would be nice to shoot such a neat piece of history and not let it be deactivated for good and just a paperweight.
 
Hi Aaron,

Up in Vermont this evening for a weekend of skiing. Ask your export man if he files the US ATF Form 6, if yes then fine, stipulate to him that you (we) will be responsible for his fee only if he successfully transfers (given what I was told). L270 is just under $400 US, the person who told me the M1911 was banned only charges $75 (but there was one other place the internet search turns up in Texas that charges $500. Hope fees would not be due on both ends!).

Given both our interest and desire to see this gun "breath" again, if there is a way, we will find it.

I will not bother to renew the one pistol permit I have not executed (renewal buys me 90 more days, something like 05/18/08) since we do not know how much time "the process" might take. I can always apply for a new permit when/if the time comes.

In any case, it is kind of fun, a very intricate story/journey for the real situation on what is what and what can happen!

Cheers my friend,

Bob
 
Please keep us updated, guys. This is definitely an interesting thread, and I'm anxious to hear the resolution, especially now that it sounds like it will be a happy ending.

Did I mention that I LOVE 1911's?
 
You don't know... the gun banners are even going after air guns... they might require your pistol to be de-activated 5 years later... and then it might be hard to transfer over here

Plus, how do the cops know its a heirloom? Don't they need records or something?
 
I have serious doubts that the 1911 can come back to the OP. If that was an option via heirloom status then all the guys at the shooting club would have done it with their fathers' pistols (there will be more pistols like this and dare I say even pistols not handed in when the ban came about).
The issue is that it isn't an antique. It fires a modern cartridge that is still in production (by the way we can have 45ACP, it just has to be in a firearm of a minimum length which is not semi-auto). If such a thing as a 45ACP lever gun existed or a single shot rifle, we could have that here in the UK.
 
Oddjob,

The piece is an antique in the US.

Have a look here:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

"Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm."

Curio: a rare or unusual thing valued as a collector's item.

As for the round being "modern", have a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

"The .45 ACP (11.43x23mm Automatic Colt Pistol), also know as the .45 Auto by C.I.P., is a rimless pistol cartridge designed by John Browning in 1904..."

The round design is 105 years old!

I don't think that the fact that it is still used today makes it a "modern" round.

Regards,

Bob
 
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Bob, I am looking at this from the UK side, not US. Check this out, page 40 Section 8.5 Note ii, and section 8.6 (c).

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/pub...policing/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf?view=Binary

I don't think that the fact that it is still used today makes it a "modern" round.
Click to expand...

That's precisely the thing that makes that pistol so 'evil' in their eyes: the fact that ammunition is 'readily available' for it. It doesn't matter when the cartridge was first designed, it matters that the cartridge can be had in quantity in modern production.
 
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Yes, I was thinking of it from the US point of view.

Well, guess there is a few things to be found out. Whether or not the gun can be made legitimate in the UK and then if it can be imported into the US.

For my part, I am going to call the ATF Firearms & Explosives Import Branch and ask them if the M1911 is banned from being imported as the FFL importer I found said.

Aaron will see what happens with the UK police and we will go from there.

Thanks,

Bob
 
Gentlemen-
I was doing a little reading today concerning the Curio & Relic FFL. In the publication containing the list of exempt "curios" there is some general information about what an "03" FFL (C&R) can do. You can find the document here:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm
In it, there is mention of importing C&R eligible firearms (anything 50 yrs or older OR on the list is a C&R). I am no expert (nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night), but my understanding is that an 03 (or a standard "01", I think) licensee can import guns on the list as long as they were never owned by a military. The caveat to this is that they must be "sporting arms" and handguns must meet a certain criteria to be classified as thus:

Licensed collectors may lawfully import curio or relic firearms other than surplus military firearms, nonsporting firearms,
and NFA weapons. [A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at
any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military
frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18
U.S.C. § 921(a)(3).] Surplus military firearms are generally prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3).
However, 18 U.S.C. § 925(e) authorizes licensed importers (FFL type 08 or 11) to import surplus military rifles,
shotguns, and handguns classified as curios or relics; provided that such handguns are generally recognized as
particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. Nonsporting handguns are those pistols and revolvers
that do not meet size and safety prerequisites, or that do not accrue a qualifying score on ATF Form 4590, "Factoring
Criteria for Weapons." Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military
configuration to qualify for importation.
Click to expand...

This may be the regulation your FFL was thinking of. You'll also note that the "Colt, model 1911 commercial" is specifically on the C&R list if under a certain S/N (under 130000), as are "US pistol model 1911 cal .45" made by the various manufacturers. I'd put my money on that pistol being a curio (and a relic) and importing being quite simple, especially if it's legitimately held in the UK.
 
We will get there or i will and mount in cabinet or something, maybe museum but whatever its not being destroyed that is real great news
Click to expand...

DOn't do this.. a de-actived gun is not a gun anymore.. it's worthless, even for a collection..

it's like having a motorless Ferrari.. even if you did not want to drive it, it still sucks knowing half the car is missing..
 
Afy,

Aaron has already handed it over to his local Armed Response unit, so that part has been accomplished.

To the other poster on antique vs. curio, thanks.
 
Update

Update on the effort to import the subject M1911A1 back to the US from UK. After much patience and persistence, "the trail" led to the US state department, referred there by the ATF. What the ATF needed was a letter from the state dept. stating that they had no objection to the re-importation of the gun. I GOT THE LETTER!

Now to do a ATF Form 6 transfer using a FFL that does this once the UK authorities are finished with their checks on the gun.

Looks like this gun might make it back to the USA and be able to be used and enjoyed for what it is afterall. Thought you all might like to know how this was going and how it is likely to turn out...: Well!

Regards,

Bob
 
This story really ought to appear in American Rifleman. "Old Warrior Home Safe." Lots of human interest, collectible firearms interest and gun law and firearms policy interest. Of course, if Holder and Clinton hear about it, they'll ban any further such rescues.
 
It reminds me of when I visited a friend in Newcastle Upon
Tyne in 1992. He had a really nice 1870's Snider Enfield carbine that he wanted me to have. I brought it home in pieces in my suitcase. I made sure the folks at the X ray machines knew ahead of time what they would see on their screen. I had to convince several bureaucrats in two airports that it was an obsolete weapon and ammo was non existant. (I lied a bit) My buddy kept the butt plate, which had a number on it and the firing pin and mailed it to me at a later date. I had in in my checked luggage, not my carry on. When I arrived in the USA, the customs agent couldn't have cared less about my luggage, I knew then I was home free. The best thing is that 2 years later my English friend came to the states and shot the carbine for the first time in his life. It's one of my favorite guns to this day.
 
Considering as how England rapidly is falling under mohammedean control, it's just as well they won't have guns.
 
Update: Pistol has been cleared by the UK authorities and we are proceeding with the process of legally having it re-imported into the US. I have a letter from the US State Dept. in hand stating that they have no objection to it's re-import. A few hundred $$ in fees and a little more patience and we should be able to complete this (arduous) process!

Regards,

Bob
 
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