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Any AR-15 compatible chambering usable at 800-1,000yrds??

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Detritus, Oct 2, 2012.

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  1. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    Note:I am serious in the question(s) i am asking below, if a bit sceptical of finding a solution not involving major headaches. I am aware that the attributes i'm looking for are at least somewhat contradictory, I'm simply asking if there is a middle ground where I can find a working balance. I am posting this to broaden my knowlege and hopefully help someone I love enjoy more of the types of shooting that I do.

    While at the range this afternoon, my wife and I got to talking about the various things that each one of us would like to do firearms-wise in the near to mid-term future. One thing on my list, and one i've brought up with her in the past, is to take a basic long range rifle course (for example the "Basic precision marksman course" offered by Snipercentral or similar). While she is open to this concept my wife has some reservations relating to gear, namely suitable rifles.

    Due to a past shoulder surgery and already being familar Trish would like to if at all possible stick with the AR15 platform, but of course at anything beyound 600 .223 rapidly runs out of gas, even with super heavy bullets and fast twist barrels.

    So what, if any, options are availble that might stretch the ar15 platform out to the 800-1,000 mark? Or alternately anything out there capable of getting there in a bolt gun with recoil noticable below that of a .308? My rifle is too much for her shoulder, even if she got good with it she'd never make it through a one day class with it, much less a multi-day like would be necessary for a LR class.

    as always thank you for your time and any knowlege or advice you choose to share.
     
  2. back40

    back40 Member

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    why not an ar in .308? or look to bolt guns in the various 6mm chamberings.
     
  3. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    1. Just stick a 26" barrel with a 1:8 twist rate on her AR-15 and load it with some 79 gr HPBTs.
    Who cares? Unless you need to knock over steel, the targets don't care about ft-lbs.

    2. AR-10 with a heavy barrel, a muzzle brake, and a recoil pad. Throw a bipod and a flashlight on there, and anything else that will weigh it down. If your wallet isn't empty yet, have it made in .243.
     
  4. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    What about one chambered for one of the WSSMs? How far will a Grendel stretch?
     
  5. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    Cost..

    An AR-10 variant of some sort (probably in .260rem or similar) is on the "if we have to" list. But the cost of a complete (and suitable) ar-10 is well, daunting :eek:

    as far as this thread though the idea was to see if there is anything that could work using the lower from the AR-15 she already has. Uppers are SO much easier to deal with in so many different ways.
    And if the ar15 isn't viable, find out what the options and oppinions are and maybe find away to reduce or spread out the cost(s) a little.

    to be quite direct about it, it would be easier to sell the idea of "Sure we can get an upper for amount Y" than the idea of "you'd need this rifle over here that is 3-4 times amount Y" ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  6. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    The 6.5 Grendel is supposed to be pretty effective to 1000 yards. But in all seriousness a Mk12 rifle with M262 will get you to 1000.
     
  7. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    Might have to look into that Now that Alexander Arms finally relaxed their grip a little. hate to say it but i've been ignoring the grendel and didn't know AA had released their trademark. (yes I'm one of the guys who refused to touch it while AA was refusing to let it go for SAAMI standardization).

    One question though, for the folks that know. Does the Grendel really do anything that the 6.8 spc doesn't and if so what exactly?

    I'll grant you that with a Mk12 using M262 it's possible to make hits at 1,000. Doing so consistently and without undue difficulty is another matter.

    Even the AMU has stopped shooting .223/5.56 at 1K. After the 2008 High Power season they threw their support behind the effort to get the M110 accepted as a "Service Rifle" then retired their M16/AR15 based LR rigs.

    .223, even pushing heavy bullets out to the very ragged edge "were the headstamp starts to fade", will have a hard time getting to 1,000yrds and staying above the speed of sound.
    Not to mention I'd kind of like to be nice to my wife and not have her learn about wind drift by hitting the next target over.
     
  8. armysniper

    armysniper member

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    A heavy barrel bolt action rifles chambered in .308 kick about the same as an AR. The .308 cartridge was designed to be a manageable cartridge. I would seriously look again at something along the lines of a .308 bolt gun with a heavy sniper/varmint barrel. I cannot stress enough that they have very little kick.

    Also if you are going through a long range course especially as a newbie, you really need to have a bolt action. It is the standard. It is more accurate, which will give you confidence at longer ranges because you will be making more hits.

    As a side note, there are heavy barreled .223's on the market. And I have seen plenty of police marksmen and others shoot the 5.56/.223 out to 1000 meters on courses of fire before also. Some of these police marksmen's departments only let them carry .223 caliber. But the sniper course of fire for qualification was out to 1000 meters. They did fine and all of them did pass with those rifles.
     
  9. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    2.23 can do 1000 yards easy enough if you do it right. They use .223 to shoot F/TR and F Class competitions. In F/TR only .308 and .223 are allowed. There are also .223 1000 yard competitions at Camp Perry. And sometimes the .223's win though it isn't often. It's generally in the youth division where less kick means more control and less flinch for young shooters. But there are AR shooters that not only shoot 1000 yards but they exceed that distance getting out past 1200 yards accurately.

    Keep in mind that the .223 is not going to displace a .308 as the most popular way to shoot 1000 yards because it is MUCH tougher to be on target with a .223 because the wind will blow the bullets around big time. But with modern equipment you can certainly get out that far and be fairly accurate if you know how to do it.

    It should be noted that most 1000 yard .223 shooters are using bolt action rifles but the AR's can and do get out to that distance. Here's video of a Savage 11 .223 getting out to 1000 yards plus. This video is supposed to be an AR at 1000 yards but they never show the rifle, only the target. This shooter does 1250 yards with a Tikka .223. The round can get out there. It just takes the right equipment and that includes some AR's.
     
  10. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    .223

    What does run out of gas mean, really? Certainly the lighter bullets are affected by the wind but they will get there and still be spinning.
    There are any number of loads, on paper at least, that will get you 2700 fps with an 80 grain bullet and with the proper twist, it will still be supersonic at 1000.
    Pete
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  11. rayatphonix

    rayatphonix Member

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    On the subject of a Grendel AR15, you'll spend as much on that as you would an AR10 in 308 or 260. DPMS AR10's are available for about $1000 if you take the time to look around. I've been unable to find a Grendel cheaper.
     
  12. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    if you have the cash, do yourself a big favor and buy a GAP10 in 6 Creedmoor (not 6.5 CM, but it's necked down to 6mm version) from GA Precision

    it's extremely low recoil. and very flat shooting. and very accurate. you will have to reload. you can buy 6CM brass from GA Precision.

    you can sometimes find these rifles used in the for sale section on snipershide
     
  13. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    The beauty of the 6.5 is that it's ballistic coefficient allows it to remain supersonic past 1000 yards. I don't believe the 6.8 can do this but don't quote me on it. The bc of the 6.5 also makes it less affected by wind.

    Shooting 1K with a .223 is silly when there are such better options out there. Hell, a 22 rimfire could hit something at 1,000 yards but it ain't practical.

    Really though i would think that you would be best served in a long range shooting class using a more commonly used caliber such as .308.
     
  14. jim243

    jim243 Member

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    For those ranges you need to look at a AR-10 in 260 or 243.

    Jim
     
  15. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    I used to shoot 24 inchers with 75+ grains at steel at 1000 yards at the great range at Coalinga in California. The real problem - aside form beating San Juaquin winds - was the lack of ass the round had at 1000 made it very hard to impossible to hear the impacts so the enjoyment was limited and 1000 yard paper targets were expensive.

    Now at 700 - that was a lot of fun and would still tip standing pigs and such 7/10 times but I could at least hear the impacts even if they didn't tip.
     
  16. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Saw a Grendel in a pawn shop yesterday for $900 some-odd. I asked the guy how long it had been there, he said less than a week, I doubt it will be there long.
     
  17. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    Now that Alexander has released the trademark, how long till Grendel barrel assemblies (to be clear barrel, gas block, and tube) become available? frankly I am capable of assembling and AR upper, that's how Trish's current AR got to config it's in now. So I don't really feel tied to the idea of "I must find a complete upper all in one go" an stripped flattop upper here, barrel assembly and bolt there, etc then put it all together.

    I'm not looking to buy or build anything all that soon either, it'll be at least a year before i go down this road, if at all. I'm just at the point of gathering as much Intel as I can so that when or if the time comes that she decides she wants to shoot out beyond the capabilites of a normal AR that i have a better idea of where to start.

    thank you for all the comments so far, lot to think about, talk about with Trish, possibly find a way to Try out (on the user end i mean, ie go see how SHE likes various) etc. As i siad I/we are a long way from needing to have a decision, I just feel it's best to have as much info as possible. :)
     
  18. rayatphonix

    rayatphonix Member

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    Grendel uppers have been available for some time. The 6.5 LBC is essentially the same cartridge (one or two dimensions vary by .002" or so) and many have been using that. The problem is finding a complete upper for less than about $900 and quality barrels and bolts (the Grendel bolt is different from the 223 bolt) for less than about $500. Add all the rest of the hardware and you're still in the $900 range. I've also found that quality Grendel barrels seem to be backordered for about 6 months or more.
     
  19. henschman

    henschman Member

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    You could spend less money than any AR would cost, and wind up with a more accurate rifle, by just buying a Savage 110 series short action. Get it in any of the chamberings that fit your criteria (lighter recoil than .308 and being 1000 yard capable), such as 7mm '08 or .243. Even in factory trim a Savage will shoot circles around almost any AR, and then once you start getting into aftermarket barrels, stocks, and triggers, it really starts to get ugly.

    Last month, I just bought a brand new Savage 11 Hunter XP package in .308 (with scope and mount) for $330, so I know deals can be found. They are great rifles that can be modified to your heart's content if you get more into long range precision shooting and figure out the specifics of what kind of rig you want.
     
  20. armysniper

    armysniper member

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    Detritus, you stated, ".223, even pushing heavy bullets out to the very ragged edge "were the headstamp starts to fade", will have a hard time getting to 1,000yrds and staying above the speed of sound."

    That is a false statement. What are you basing this information on? Current factory .223 loads drive a 55 grain bullet at 3,240 fps at the muzzle. Muzzle energy is 1,282 ft. lbs.

    .308's only push between 2500-2700 average which is sufficient for 1000 meter shots. So if a .223 is traveling at over 3000 fps its going much faster with plenty of velocity to target.
     
  21. armysniper

    armysniper member

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    Best kept secret

    One of the best AR-15 rifles for accuracy and velocity is the M&P 15 sport. Here is why.

    Aside from it having mil spec innards, it has a heavier full profile barrel chambered in 5.56 nato.

    Here's the kicker, it has a 1-8 twist rate with 5R rifling. This combination makes this rifle one of the most accurate, if not the most accurate factory AR 15 on the market. A lot of people turn their noses up at this rifle, but its mostly those who think that an AR 15 has to look a certain way.

    Smith and Wesson left out the forward assist and dust cover, but gave us the gift of that awesome barrel. I have a standard AR 15 and the Sport. The sport out performs it by a mile.

    That rifle is an excellent base for a competition rifle for long distance. The only change you would have to make to get it going for serious work, is putting a match grade trigger group in it.
     
  22. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    I still think an AR in 5.56 will do what you want. If not I'd look at a bolt gun in 243.
     
  23. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    6.5 Grendel or .243 WSSM. You can make a .223 do it but it's working pretty hard.

    Yes, the .223 is allowed, but hardly anyone shoots it, I can't recall the last time anyone won an F-TR event with a .223.
     
  24. atblis

    atblis Member

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    Isn't it a collapsible stock 16" carbine?

    6mm AR

    http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek068.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  25. back40

    back40 Member

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    that's a pretty tall claim, considering the match grade guns that some companies put out.
     
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