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Any AR-15 compatible chambering usable at 800-1,000yrds??

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Detritus, Oct 2, 2012.

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  1. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    Muzzle Velocity is NOT an accurate indicator of downrange Velocity When comparing two different cartidges. Espcially when bullet weight doubles from one to the next (80gr is heavy for a .223 and 155gr is considered light in a .308 unless it's for Palma). there IS an inertia component where the heavier, longer, (and usually because of the previous two) better BC bullets have an advantage.

    it's like saying that a yugo and a Mack truck both going 65mph will stop in the same distance with the same amount of brake pressure (Drag). Physics does not back that up. When exposed to the same amount of drag, for a given speed, the lighter object will decelerate at a higher rate than the heavier one.
    Nor are your statements backed up by the actions of those shooting Long range competition. Very few shooters choose to use .223 past 6-800yards unless forced to by circumstance (unit/agency issue weapon, etc).

    .223 is very marginal for anyting beyound 800 even at it's upper limits. 1K CAN be done with a .223 but it is an uphill fight. there is a reason .308 is the dominant round in F-T/R, .223 just makes for too much additional work out of the shooter on and off the range compared to .308.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  2. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    How about a bolt gun in 243/260/6.5CM? With good loads they can very easily do 1k and have pretty little recoil.
     
  3. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    Definitely on the possibles list (.260 at least), and actually what I myself would prefer to do. Trish on the otherhand is kind of in love with her AR and would prefer to stay with that deisgn for reasons of familiarity and comfort (read: her possible recoil sensitivity).

    Like I said earlier, I just want to explore whatelse was out there so i'd know more about what other options were available.
     
  4. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    Staying with the AR and not wanting to go Mk12 route the only real option you have is the Grendel. Supposedly you can get some of the WSSM cartridges in the AR15 but I've never seen one and I can't remember ever seeing ammo either. Then again I've never looked for it.
     
  5. armysniper

    armysniper member

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    You also forget the physics of the greater the surface area the greater the friction. .308 is larger and slower than a .223. So your physics argument contradicts itself.

    No one argues that a 22-250 is a long range bullet. The light weight of the bullet only affects the bullets velocity with a lower fps.

    A match grade action, barrel and trigger in .223 will make 1000 yard shots all day long along. My statement is based upon real world experience.

    It just sounds like your a .308 fanboy who argues for the sake arguing. No doubt you will have to have the last word even though you are wrong about .223
     
  6. Saakee

    Saakee Member

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    You could build a new AR-15 on the Hydra receiver which has an interchangeable magwell. This model is an AK magwell then you just switch out magwell attachments to go back to .223/5.56.
     
  7. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    And more sources (and match results) than I can count, attest that a 175gr SMK at 2750-2800fps, will more reliably stay supersonic (and stable) out to 1,000yrds than the 69gr SMk at 3,000fps. and if you go up to the High BC 80gr and above bullet weights that many are using to get to 1K the MV advantage shrinks to next to nothing.


    let's stop this, this thread is not meant to be a .223 Vs. .308 argument. Especially since I'm looking for info on what else to look at since neither one comfortably fits the requirements i'm anticipating. Being as they are the two opposite ends of the bracket.

    to reiterate I'm looking for info on cartridges that have more down range energy, as relates to staying more easily supersonic out to 1K and less wind drift, than a .223, but less recoil in a managable weight rifle (the 13-14lbs of my Remington being a good top end) than .308.

    Except as a fall back position neither .308 nor .223 is what i'm looking for.

    That said, specifics of what exactly a given shooter is doing (including amount of range time required to stay proficient enough) to get their .223 AR to 1K and Keep it running there reliably are still welcome.

    But simply saying "stick with .223 it'll do it" doesn't help.
     
  8. dom1104

    dom1104 Member

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    This information is simply not true.
     
  9. SilentStalker

    SilentStalker Member

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    I vote for a bolt gun in .308WIN as well. They are accurate as all get out and you can pick up a decent .308 cheap or you can go all out and get something on the $2000+ end. Its all up to you. As far as your wife wanting to do something with the AR because she is familiar with that platform, that is all good and gravy but I would not use that as an excuse not to get a bolt gun. You cannot get any simpler in operation than a bolt gun. My point here is that if she can operate a AR effectively then a bolt gun should be a walk in the park.
     
  10. KansasSasquatch

    KansasSasquatch Member

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    I'm no expert at shooting 1000 yards but what about an FNAR. Sure it's .308 but from most o the reviews I've read they shoot 1moa with good ammo. Plus the examples I've handled are pretty heavy compared to the average AR15, which should help with the recoil. If its possible to add a muzzle brake that could help even more.
     
  11. joustin

    joustin Member

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    What about a Remington R25 in 7mm-08? Ugly camo but its heavy with a flat top upper.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
     
  12. Still Shooting

    Still Shooting Member

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    Another Possibility for 1000 yds.

    You may want to look also at a modern bolt rifle in 6.5x55 Swede. It has an outstanding BC, not bad on recoil at all, and the cartridge just wants to be accurate...
     
  13. Howard Roark

    Howard Roark Member

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    As far as AR15s the 6mmBR is the way to go for LR low recoil and accuracy. There is not a.308 length cartridge that will feed through an AR15 lower if you plan to use your existing platform. There are several other options but you will have to make brass and or reload.
     
  14. mnhntr

    mnhntr Member

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    In the AR15 platform you have the 6x45, 6mmBR, 243wssm, 25wssm, 6.5 wssm, and 6.5 grendel for long range work.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  15. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    If i go the AR10/R25/whatever else name route, I'll go to either .308 or preferably .260, strictly on the merits more proven load data to get them out that far. But An AR10 type is still "on the table" so to speak. :)

    I already reload, and whatever winds up being the eventual solution (this is all still in the gather data stage) it's highly unlikely that I would continue to use factory ammo in it regardless. in other words I'm not scared of having to roll my own, though i would prefer to be able to buy rather than having to make (from related) cases.

    I have one, it's great for me. But, at least at this time, it's too much for my wife, who's had a shoulder surgery, and is "less well padded" than I am. And frankly her recoil sensitivity is the factor that brought me to start this thread

    I was/am mainly looking for info on what's out there now that will fit in the AR15 and have better performance than .223 out to 1k yards.
    But i am also open to the idea of a bolt gun in a lighter recoiling cartridge be it something of ".308 class" (.260, 6.5 Creedmore, etc), or something like 6.5 Grendel (or LBC) put into a bolt gun to milk every ounce of MV out of it.

    again thanks for all the info and advice, I'm enjoying reading all this and doing follow up on the bits that look promising.
     
  16. 68wj

    68wj Member

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  17. Nanook

    Nanook Member

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    As recoil is a problem for your wife, when you do settle on a rifle she likes consider putting on a Limbsaver recoil pad.

    I put one on a .308 I shoot off a bench, and it really works well. It might be something that would work for your wife, whichever rifle you finally settle on.

    Pachmayr makes the Decelerator which works very well too. Both have models that need to be fit to the gun, as well as slip-on models.
     
  18. Infidel4life11

    Infidel4life11 Member

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    I've been out to 1,000 yards with a M110 (AR10) sniper rifle. With the 223/5.56 out to 1,000 takes a lot of skill which getting to that level and being consistent at hitting at that range can be a deal breaker. My first choice would be a .308, why? because I've been there it wasn't hard, kick is very low and very easy to handle. Heres a video of Travis Haley making a 1-mile shot with a 308 AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uukniV4aQS4 2nd choice would be a 243 and 3rd would be a 260. However with a 260 barrel life will come into question, ammo is a little more and not as easy to find. When you start getting into a unique AR (6.5, 243, 260) the aftermarket becomes a little more shallow vs. 5.56/7.62
     
  19. helotaxi

    helotaxi Member

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    Bullet weight as much as it is relevant is captured in BC. BC is all that matters in how well the bullet maintains velocity.

    Terrible analogy. Without normalizing frontal area and form drag, mass has nothing to do with ballistics. Mass in proportion to frontal area (sectional density) is one component of BC. Form factor is the other. It is very simple for SD to be overcome with form factor. Look at the BC of a 220gn .308 round nose bullet. It's in general worse than a 69gn .224 OTM bullet. The .223 bullet will carry velocity downrange better despite the major "disadvantage" in weight. Run a ballistics program and you will quickly see that bullet weight doesn't matter in trajectory calculations. Run calculations twice only changing the weight if you don't believe me.
    Nor are your statements backed up by the actions of those shooting Long range competition. Very few shooters choose to use .223 past 6-800yards unless forced to by circumstance (unit/agency issue weapon, etc).

    And .308 is dominated in every other long range discipline by smaller calibers using lighter bullets because weight doesn't matter. Trajectory is a factor of only two things, BC and muzzle velocity. The 6mms dominate 1k comps because they offer very good BC and excellent velocity with minimal recoil. The 7mms offer excellent BC and very good velocity but at the cost of recoil. The 6.5mms offer moderate velocity and very good to excellent BC but with significantly more recoil than the 6mms.

    If you're just starting out in the long range game, a 6mm is the place to begin; and chambered in a bolt rifle. The slower lock time of an AR makes it more difficult to shoot one as well as a bot gun, especially at long range where every little thing is amplified. From a machine rest, the AR might be just as accurate, but the shooter interface has to be considered and the AR is at a disadvantage there.
     
  20. helotaxi

    helotaxi Member

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    The 6x45 is a great cartridge, but not when you're talking about long range. The high BC bullets don't even begin to fit in the magazine and because of the reduced velocity require a custom barrel to even stabilize.

    The .25WSSM is likewise a terrible cartridge for long range work because no one makes a suitable bullet.

    The 6.5 suffers from lack of powder capacity in the Grendel and lack of available bullet length in the WSSM.

    The simple fact is that by trying to start out with an AR15 when going out to 1k, you're asking for an uphill battle and frustration. Start out with a rifle actually suitable for the task. If things get too easy once you've mastered that, accept a handicap like the AR or .308. Don't start out with it.
     
  21. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    again thanks for al the input and feedback on this guys, it really is helpful. :)


    Now i'm going to lay it all out...

    I am asking for info on AR15 compatible cartridges, because i want to have a fall back position in case I can't get Trish to utilize a more suitable rig. by that I mean a bolt action or AR10 type shooting something with a High BC (my understanding is that the 6s and 6.5s do very well).

    I don't really WANT to have to engage in the uphilll fight that is trying to "go Long" with a AR15 type.

    My order of preference would run like this
    1. Bolt gun
    2. AR-10 with a VERY good trigger, in other than .308
    3. and only if for whatever reason(s) I can not budge her from it, AR-15 in other than .223

    again, my intent was primarily to find out about what's out there in the AR-15 class rounds that might do.
    With a secondary idea of finding out what i could suggest to her If i CAN get trish to use a bolt gun, with her limitations in mind.

    I KNOW that the AR15 isn't a truly suitable platform, so please refrain from saying that over and over again. I am looking for answers within limits that I myself did not impose, and that i hope won't actually be in full effect.

    I'm searching for solutions now so that I'm not left flat-footed if it turns out that trish can't comfortably make the transition to a much more suitable platform.
     
  22. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    look, you can still have fun with AR15s at long range, even moderately expensive ones in 223.

    just hand-feed the 80g or 90g and get a big steel target instead of a little steel target. you can also buy an electronic gizmo that velcros to the back of the steel, registers impact (like the sensor in your smartphone that can tell when you're shaking it) and wire or wirelessly transmits it to a flashing red light you hang on a post several yards away. that way, you don't have to rely on detecting the sound or swing of the plate, which you won't get with the little 223. i think the systems are around $200 ea.


    we're just saying not hitting anything can be frustrating if you don't have proper instruction
     
  23. mnhntr

    mnhntr Member

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    I completely agree with you. My long range work is done with a Savage LRP in .260remington. I was just throwing out the calibers in the AR15 platform that are better than the .223 for long range. None are ideal but some are better. If it was me I would buy her a .243 or .260 bolt gun.
     
  24. atblis

    atblis Member

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    6mm AR Turbo. 105 gr Berger going 2800 fps+. Looks to be the best long range AR cartridge on paper (drop and wind drift).
     
  25. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    Update

    Somedays I'm sure that among the reasons i Love my wife is the fact that living with her, and trying my best to figure out how to accomplish goals that involve her, is never ever Boring!

    All of this thinking i've been doing on how to get her shooting longer ranges, or a scoped centerfire period. Thinking that based on past expereince she'd be reluctant to move away from the AR platform....

    And then almost as a joke (holding out little real hope), I handed her a Used Savage model 12 in .223 (it's marked "12 Long Range" but i can't find a matching model listing) one of the shops I frequent has on hand. and now we're trying to figure out how to scrape up the extra cash to get it.

    Summary of what we found, it's at a decent price, comes with a few extras including the load recipe that produced dime sized 5-shot 100yrd groups for the previous owner.
    the idea at this point (if we're able to get it) is to get her behind the trigger of it as is, since it'll be months if not a year+ before she ever works up to ready to go beyond 300yrds with it much less over 600. and in the meantime I'll gather the parts and tools to convert it to .243 (easy on a Savage) for when or if she decides to try shooting longer range.
     
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