Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Any Mormons here? How do explain yourselves?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Hellbore, Apr 7, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hellbore

    Hellbore Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2003
    Messages:
    336
    I'm Mormon but most of my Mormon friends are anti-gun. As far as I have ever heard, our church says NOTHING about guns. They are just anti-gun for lack of exposure and maybe out of ignorance, I don't think being a Mormon has anything to do with it.

    Anyone here Mormon who can help me convince them I'm not an evil would-be murderer just because I want to be able to protect my own life?

    The kind of arguments I get from my fellow Mormons are:

    1. If you really have faith, God will protect you, don't trust in the arm of the flesh, trust God to protect you.

    2. Don't kill someone in self-defense, that's murder! How could you live with yourself? Better to die than to be a murderer!

    3. Why carry a gun around at all times? For example, I know a guy who is Mormon who carries at church. A fellow Mormon says "you are crazy, what are you going to do, shoot the Bishop? Why would you ever need a gun in church?"

    4. It is a lose-lose situation... Even if you do use a gun to defend yourself or others, you are just as bad as the would-be attacker.

    5. If I point out to them that the Church does not consider it to be murder when you go to war and shoot someone. When I say this, they always say "Well you aren't going to WAR, you just want to carry a gun around for no reason! It's different!"

    These arguments are ridiculous to me, and I do my best to refute them, but does anyone here have any suggestions? Any statements made by Church officials? Any scripture on these topics?

    Another thing that irks me is, Mormons believe that the Constitution was an inspired document, that the people who wrote it were under the inspiration of God. Almost like it's scripture. They also believe that God wants them to respect the laws of the land. However, when I point out that our laws say self-defense killing isn't murder, and that we have the 2nd ammendment, they always seem to backpedal. They say "well the 2nd ammendment isn't valid in today's world" or they say "Well just because the government says it isn't murder doesn't mean God doesn't think it is murder". Well excuse me, but they KNOW they are supposed to live by the laws of the land! Why would God tell them to do that, then punish them for it? Also, didn't I just hear how inspired the Constitution is supposed to be? Oh, but only some of it? The Ammendments don't count or something? Never mind that it was DESIGNED to be ammended...

    There are also countless scriptures in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon about people defending themselves with deadly force. There have been a whole lot of deaths inflicted in the name of God through war.

    Also, in the history of the Mormon church there are examples. There have been Mormon posses. The Mormon church got together all their able men and sent them to join the Army. One of the Mormon prophets and leader of the Church, the famous Brigham Young, had an especially famous gun-slinging body guard named Porter Rockwell. Look him up, interesting guy.

    The man who established the Church, Joseph Smith, also had armed bodyguards. These men who plaid very important roles in the early Church obviously believed in the right to defend their own lives with deadly force.

    Anyways... I partly wanted to rant, and I partly wanted to see what any Mormons here have to say about this topic.

    Anyway, I don't think these Mormons are anti-gun because of logic or any scriptures that tell them to be so. I think it is simply a lack of exposure to guns and just ignorance about our constitution and the history of their own Church. I have a hard time understanding how any Mormon can be anti-gun.
     
  2. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2003
    Messages:
    5,479
    Location:
    Seattle
    Im not a Mormon, but I seem to remember that Mormon history is rife with examples in which weapons were necessary in the defense of the faith. I can't think of a religion that has depended on personal armament in modern history more than the Mormons. Im quite suprised that there are any antigun Mormons out there.
     
  3. MaterDei

    MaterDei Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,514
    Location:
    Houston
    You might not agree with this but it seems to me that you might be able to use it to justify your gun ownership.

    “All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?... "I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the almighty, but who are now angels to the devil... I have known a great many men who left this church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them, the wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbids this principle's being in full force, but the time will come when the law of god will be in full force."
    -Sermon by Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, Feb. 8, 1857, printed in the Deseret News, Feb. 18, 1857; also reprinted in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pp. 219-220
     
  4. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,309
    Location:
    Louisiana, USA
    There's a Mormon pro-RKBA discussion board, similar to THR, called Zion's Camp. You'll find it here. I'm sure it will help a lot.
     
  5. critter

    critter Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,166
    Location:
    southeast AR
    It sounds like to me that all the anti-gun arguments you have listed have very little to do with Mormonism. Those are the same old tired arguments that all anti's use.

    Standard pro-gun arguments will work there as well as anywhere else and you must remember that most of those anti's have their minds made up and you are under a big load if you think you can change them.

    Good luck!
     
  6. SamlautRanger

    SamlautRanger member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Messages:
    310
    Location:
    Cambodia
    Maybe you should contact George Hill, the Mad Ogre, he is a Mormom and has enough guns to start his own little militia and makes Rush Limbaugh look like a liberal! :neener:

    (from reading his blog and post seems like a good man and a fellow 11 bang bang vet)

    Also, from my Special Forces days, we had a pretty large number of Mormons there. Matter of fact when the 5th Bn, 19th Special Forces group from Utah deployed to Afghanistan they were called the "Stormen Mormons'' . had a couple A-teams that were 75%-100% Mormon.
     
  7. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    10,122
    Location:
    Northern Indiana
    I always love

    the line "things are different today". If that's true, then it applies to the whole document written at that time. If it's different for select parts, it's different for all of it. Toss the whole thing.

    What that line really means is "it ought to be changed to reflect my values, or at least I have to change it in my mind to reflect my current values".

    The original writer was obviously wrong, and I'm smarter than they were. :rolleyes:

    The Ten Commandments were written before the Hebrews crossed into Israel. When they crossed over, God commanded them to kill every person there. If God cannot sin, yet commanded the killing of those there, how can it be a sin?

    Also, God does not protect you. The Free Will thing. He lets stuff play out and judges later. For the "God protects me guys, say a big prayer, then dive head first off a 10 story building. We'll discuss our relative points at the bottom

    I respect your right to choose any religion you like.


    Post edited by moderator.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2005
  8. Navy joe

    Navy joe Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,362
    Location:
    VA
    John Moses Browning was a Mormon, enough said! He learned guns because his dad fixed/made guns in order to protect the early Mormons. If not for guns and active self defense in the 19th century there would probably be no Mormons today. Are they really that ignorant of history?
     
  9. Checkman

    Checkman member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,884
    Location:
    Idaho
    I'm not a Mormon, but I grew up in Eastern Idaho where they are the majority - or at least they used to be. Anyway most of my friends were mormons as were a couple of girlfriends. I don't recall ever running into an anti-gun Mormon. Ever. Some of the biggest shooters I've had contact with were LDS. Exactly where do you live? Or are they the "Next Generation" in which case there is no hope for anybody because I always figured the Mormons would be the last to go. If they're going it's all over. :(
     
  10. whm1974

    whm1974 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,058
    A lot of people are ignorant of thier relegion's history. Most christerns are not not aware that Jesus told his discples to buy a sword if they didn't have one.

    -Bill
     
  11. dave3006

    dave3006 member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2003
    Messages:
    898
    Post deleted by moderator.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2005
  12. CentralTexas

    CentralTexas Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,235
    Location:
    Austin Texas
    anyone read

    -
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2005
  13. boofus

    boofus Guest

    Isn't the Mormon church offering a $1 million reward for the return of John Moses Browning's serial #1 1919 machinegun? It was stolen from a museum a while back.
     
  14. JamisJockey

    JamisJockey member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,745
    Location:
    Northern VA
    I'm not a mo, but I live in Utah and am surrounded by them. Most here are defintely not anti gun. Alot of them hunt, and own guns for thier little end of the world scenerio. The 6th of april has come and gone again, by the way, with no end of the world in sight.
     
  15. halvey

    halvey Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Messages:
    1,914
    Ok, this is coming from a pretty devout Christian:

    Like many religions, they want control over you. They want to make you believe the church is in control and you need to listen to the church. Being armed means taking personal responsibility upon yourself. This goes against the grain of a lot of churches.

    Their argument is not really God will protect you, but the CHURCH will protect you.

    I'll use my church as an example. They are big on tithing (giving 10% to the church) or like they say (10% to God). Tithing is an Old Testament rule among many plucked out and used for the benefit of the church. I don't necessarily disagree with giving 10%, but saying we are biblically bound to do so is a pure lie. If tithing is a requirement, then so are all the other "rules" we totally ignore in the Old Testament.
     
  16. hartzpad

    hartzpad Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    445
    Location:
    Utah
    Hellbore, I think you need to either do some more research or find some different friends. I am Mormon, raised in SF Bay Area with guns and now live in Utah and own guns. I don't know many mormons that are anti-gun, in fact we just had a world General Conference where all mormons listen to speakers from the church via satelite and I can count 3 or 4 stories told last weekend by leaders of the church that involved guns and hunting. There is a large percentage of gun owners here and many have CCW permits. My CCW instructor was mormon. The school I attend (BYU) does not permit CCW on campus, but it's a private university, so it can legally do that. I know lots of students that own guns and have gone shooting with a lot of them. I don't know of any doctrine that states that self-defense is murder, quite the contrary, I know of scriptural examples and counsel from leaders of the church that it is every man's duty to protect his family, even with his own life if necessary.

    I could go on and on, but in the interest of time, I will stop.


    Dave3006: do you still consider The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be a cult when we have almost 12 million members and have been established in over 130 countries and for 175 years? We are definitely Christians (hence the name of the church), but that is a discussion for another day and time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2005
  17. hartzpad

    hartzpad Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    445
    Location:
    Utah
    JamisJockey - you have the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder-Day Saints confused with the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder-Day Saints, the FLDS church is the polygamist break-off church (in the 1800's) that is struggling to survive and they thought that April 6th was the end of the world or something. They are not mormons.
     
  18. PvtPyle

    PvtPyle Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    733
    Location:
    Draper UT
    Actually 5th Bn in in Colorado, always has been. They also did not go the A-stan with us, it was 2nd Bn from Washington. Here in Utah it is 1st Bn and the BSC. We were called lots of things depending on where you were. The Stormin Mormons to The Saints and Sinners.

    Come on over to Zions and talk to some of the Brothers there. You will not find a more devout and heavily armed group of Saints around. But you have been given some very sound advice here. These are not Mormon agueements, these are typical anti-gun agrueements. We could list lots of counters to their pathetic whinning and hand ringing, but why bother? You will not convert these types of people.

    If I said anything I would simply say to them, "Remember your Church history. We would have been wiped out by federal troops if it weren't for Mormons with guns (and the stones to use them-this part is optional)."
     
  19. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    4,938
    Location:
    The Copper Country, Michigan
    The same could be said of Jews, but there are.
     
  20. yorec

    yorec Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Wyoming
    One good story to bring up is Joseph Smith's death... He fired three rounds from a cap and ball revolver into the door at Cathidge in an attempt to what? It was clearly self defense. Remind them of that.

    Seems to me what you're describing is Soccer mom attitude. Seen a lot of that. Not relevant any more than the semi-religious bits of advice on this board... Just a matter of ignorance. Educate 'em if you can, but don't despair.
     
  21. Sharps Shooter

    Sharps Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2005
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Southeast Idaho
    I'm with Checkman. I'm not Mormon, but I've lived in Eastern Idaho for 32 years and they're definitely the majority here. I've never heard of them being anti-gun bigots before, in fact, a few years ago I was hunting with my Mormon Bishop friend and his son, when his son shot his first deer. I also sold that same friend a .357 Magnum revolver.
    Where do you live? I'm fairly certain Utah even has CCW reciprocity with Idaho and Utah is sure enough a Mormon run state.
    By the way - have you tried any of those beers from that micro-brewery down there in Provo, Utah? The "Polygamy Porter" is pretty good if you like dark beer. The billboard advertisements for it ask the question - "Why have just one?" or say -"Take one home to the wives."
     
  22. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2003
    Messages:
    764
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    My understanding is that the LDS Church councils members to stockpile tobacco and alcohol, to be used for bartering once the SHTF.

    If you don't have any guns, how are you going to keep (less principled) sinners like me out of your stockpiles??

    Because you know darn well I aint goin' to TEOTWAWKI without a smoke and a drink!
     
  23. hartzpad

    hartzpad Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    445
    Location:
    Utah
    Snakeyes, are you being serious? No wonder people have extreme misconceptions of Mormons when people make up silly stories like your own. If you are serious, please show me a source because I have never heard of such things. If you are just joking, funny stuff.
     
  24. 12 Volt Man

    12 Volt Man Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Utah
    As a Gun Totin' Mormon (who needs to repent). I can tell you that there are a great number of Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who believe in our 2nd Ammendment Rights. Notice the name of the Church contains the name "Jesus Christ" right in it. Anyone who says that Mormon's aren't Christian has not studied the teachings of the Church. That is all that needs to be said about that.

    We had a get together last year with a bunch of Utah High Road Members. You can bet that the majority of those who were there were Mormons. You should have seen the magnificent collection of firearms that were shot that day. The only thing remotely "anti" that I heard from the leaders of the Church was discussed here at length a year or two ago. There was some dumbass (actually in the town where I grew up) who had his CCW at church. He took it out to show his buddies and had an AD. If I remember right, he actually shot himself. Like with many things when somebody does something stupid, it generates a rule that everyone then has to follow. The leaders of the Church then asked that permit holders not carry their guns at church. To some, an anti gun stance. To others, more of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing. It is inevitable that one day some freak will come into a church and start shooting and taking people out. I for one hope that there are a couple of permit holders that can "save the day" so to speak.

    Most of my neighbors are more devout members of the church than I. They all go to church every Sunday, pay their tithing, etc...... They don't own guns. They might have their dad's hunting rifle lying around, but none of them fancy it as a hobby like I do. Funny thing is, they all know I have a supply of guns and ammo. More than one person has told me that if the SHTF, they are heading over to my house. :)

    There is also one thing that has always made me think. I don't know of any other religion that gets "picked on" so much as the Mormon Church. You never hear, "watch out for those 7th Day Adventist's, they aren't Christian", or "Did you know that Catholics have horns", or even "Have you read this book?, It tells you why the Church of Scientology is wrong." There is more anti-Mormon stuff out there that there is for any other religion. The more I hear it or see this sort of thing, it makes me think they they may be the ones that have it right. I do know one thing. Last summer my neighbor and I were working on his yard. We had 15 pallets of sod just dropped of and we were set to spend the whole day laying sod in his yard. Next thing you know 12 or 13 guys from the local Mormon church show up out of nowhere. We had that sod done in two hours. That is hard to beat.

    You need to know at least this much. The Mormons (Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) are good people, they are with us on Pro-2A rights.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2005
  25. thatguy

    thatguy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,166
    I lived in Utah for 5 years and it was the most gun friendly state I have experienced. Everyone owned guns and nobody (except the Univ. of Utah Adm.) got upset at the sight of guns.

    I was told that LDS doctrine tells its members to be prepared to defend home, family and Church and many took that as a directive to be armed.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page