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Any point in guns for self defence?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by sasnofear, Dec 13, 2003.

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  1. sasnofear

    sasnofear member

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    Really what is the point in home defence guns or concealed carry. None whatsoever.

    the two reasons being 1/ burgulars and 2/ terrorists

    1/ why? its higly unlikely if u find a burgular in ur house he is going to increase his crime to murder, assult maby but hardly murder. (that is if you are actually burgaled and meet the burgular)

    2/ this is probally the most stupied reason i've ever heard im my life...i mean the thought that people can be so stupied to think a terrorist is going to pay them a personal visit is insanity, i mean really, can you really hear yourself saying that? who would go to the bother to go to americans homes to kill them for terrorisum, or that you are going to see them in the street about to shoot people! stay vigilant...for what! it is really, so,so laughable. has the been any terrorist shootings after 9/11- masacures in the streets? i bet some of the people here got loaded up after the washington sniper, haha, the thought of it! i mean come on ppl are you really thing an apocolypse with therrorist is someing, you look out to the ocean and a D-Day II armada on the beaches?
     
  2. ACP230

    ACP230 Member

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    Please refer to the thread above on Islamic propaganda films featuring Westerners kidnapped and killed to order.

    Car jackings are another reason to carry concealed. There have been several foiled lately by armed Americans, including one in my own state.

    From the tone of your post you appear to be among the intellectually unarmed, but perhaps there is still some slim hope.
     
  3. sasnofear

    sasnofear member

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    yea, i did read it which was what promted me to start this post. In your own state you say, oh my god, are you ok, i mean that could of been so easliy you! you should really get better armed after that near miss.

    stay vigilant!
     
  4. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    Let's try to keep this friendly. :)

    Sasnofear: are you genuinely interested in a discussion on whether or not one's life is worth defending, or are you throwing mud?

    I carry a firearm because it's the third most-effective means of defense available to me. What are the first two means?

    1. Situational awareness - stay out of trouble or leave before it starts, if you can.

    2. Running shoes - get away from a bad situation, if you can.

    Sometimes, though, you're stuck in a bad spot and running away either isn't possible or is sure to get you badly hurt - possibly even killed. Do you feel that you have a duty to allow another person to seriously injure you, or even kill you, if they want to do so? Do you feel that you have a duty to "wait and see" if the person threatening you with a deadly weapon really will smack you over the head with the tire iron?

    I don't. I value my life, and I'm willing to defend it against unwarranted aggression. You may not feel the same as I do, and that's fine - whether to use force in self-defense is, as with many things, a very personal decision.
     
  5. Kamicosmos

    Kamicosmos Member

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    Are you actually in North Ireland? And you honestly don't think things like terror attacks and military invasion/occupation will happen and will impact a 'civilians' life?


    You must live a very different life over there than what the world has seen of N I in the past 30ish years....

    And, you're first comment is just bizarre. You must not be reading any type of news from the States. Home invasions of multiple perpetrators are increasing, not only inthe US but in the UK and Austrailia as well. Many of the cases, the home owners are killed first thing as the intruders enter the home.


    Born yesterday, or living under a rock?
     
  6. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    sasno, did you read about the two guys who burst into a house in Wichita KS and ended up murdering all but one of the residents? (all were shot in the head but one survived, and she managed to make it bleeding and naked in the snow to a nearby house) All had completely cooperated to the point of withdrawing money from their ATMs and being raped.

    That's just one example.

    Maybe your burglars are more polite over there? Do you leave milk and cookies out for them?
     
  7. Sportcat

    Sportcat Member

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    I bet if there were more concealed carrying residents in Israel, the homicide bombers over there might not be as succesful in killing innocent people as they have.

    I don't think a terrorist is going to knock on my door, but he may have plans for my local shopping mall or restaurant. Quite possibly my concealed wepaon might be able to save my life, my wife's, or some of those around me.

    I hope I never have to use it, but I'm glad it is there.
     
  8. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Sir, I work in a supermax lockdown prison, where I deal with the worst of the worst. Criminals do not fear cops or prison - they fear armed citizens who will kill them. This happens. Many crimes, up to two million a year according to some numbers, are thwarted per year by the simple display of a firearm. I note your home of record is Ireland, where firearms ownership is severely restricted, but terrorism is rampant. Whoops.
    If crime is unaffected by firearms ownership, explain the severe drop in Kennesaw, GA, crime rate after they passed a city ordinance requiring the ownership of a firearm and ammuntion, with exceptions to prohibited possessors and conscientous objectors. Thier rate of home invasion, robbery and other home and street assault style crime dropped by a staggering 80+%, and has remained at that low level while surrounding Atlanta has risen dramatically.
    I reccomend you read any of the Granpa Jack pamphlets from http://www.jpfo.org/ , as well as watch thier movie Innocents Betrayed.
    Does you handle state your previous or current employment, because no special forces types I have ever met would ever state such absurdity.
    If you believe you have no need of a firearm, then more power to you, especaily living in a place where terrorism is the norm, but don't spit on my sidewalk and tell me it's good for the grass.
    :fire:
     
  9. Khornet

    Khornet Member

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    By your name

    I suspect that you have your own domestic enemies, to wit SAS. Odd, then, that you don't see a need to be armed.

    AS for terrorists, I have no concern that they'd bother with my little rural NH town. But they would bother with Boston and New York, and if they do something which causes mass destruction there those people will flee.....to NH. And most of them will be perfectly nice folks who we'll be happy to help. But with them will come the scum: the drug gangs, the rapists, robbers, etc. And I will be armed against them.

    As for burglary: my weapon is for preservation of my life, and that of my loved ones. Not my property, because deadly force is inappropriate to keep someone from stealing your TV--IF that's all he's doing. But 'hot' burglaries do happen--by accident over here, by design in your UK--and the kind of person who will do that is often the kind who will murder inhabitants. I will be ready for them.

    As for other assaults, they happen everywhere. Not far form me, an innocent, well-loved couple, college teachers, were brutally murdered in their home...with knives. A few years ago, a madman on a rampage in an even more remote part of my state killed several people before being hunted down. He walked into an office and started shooting, and if a few people like me had been there he'd have been stopped before he could kill more.

    I can go on and on, but suffice it to say that it's your life. You may depend on the Constabulary if you wish, and I would do nothing to stop you. The difference is that you would force me to do so as well--but you'll have to be armed to do it. Good luck with the SAS!
     
  10. sasnofear

    sasnofear member

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    thnks 4 replys, just first point- Beren: im not just throwing mud, i do want a real civil conversation on the subject because it is interesting.

    the crucial point here is went your talking about murders that happen is "did you read about " "what the world has seen" "if" this is stuff thats hyped up in the news that is unlikley to happen to 'you', i know your going to say well im preventing it, but the truth is it's 1,000,000 to 1 that your going to be in the situation to prevent it, never mind actually stopping it. i think that in american the media has a lot to answer to, i and a friend actually laughed when we watched fox, its beefed up and dramatised and some artistic licence, where as news in 'unaffected' countrys is bla,bla so and so was killed today. fox is: it's raining fire theres bodies everywhere.

    Kamicosmos - "Are you actually in North Ireland? And you honestly don't think things like terror attacks and military invasion/occupation will happen and will impact a 'civilians' life?"

    it dosen't to be quite honest with you, there are so many examples of people being told in a place that there may be a bomb there and to evacuate, do they..no not always. if theres a 'suspicious' package in a car if the cop knows what he's doing he may just smash window and see whats inside where as in american it seems that half the state police would be called in.

    "You must live a very different life over there than what the world has seen of N I in the past 30ish years...."

    exactly im sure a lot of americans think this is some sort of warzone , media again!
     
  11. greyhound

    greyhound Member

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    I am not up to date on firearms laws in N. Ireland, but wouldn't it be sort of the same as the UK (since technically it is, though try telling that to the "boys down south".)?

    We also don't know how long this person has lived in N. Ireland, I sense some Michael Moore-ish "minority fearing Americans" cant in the original post.

    Things like 9/11 and the sniper shooting do prompt more people to arm themselves. Not because they think they are going to be the direct target of terrorists or are personally going to shoot it out withthe DC snipers.
    Its because incidents like that remind us of just how the unexpected can happen at any time, and rather than rely only on 911 or the government to protect them (notice I said "only", there are circumstances where dialing 911 or relying on the police are important) they want to be able to take personal responsibility for defending them and their loved ones, should the need arise.

    9/11 and the DC snipers cause us to examine such things, and self defense is a natural part of our culture, one that has been eroded somewhat in the last 50 years but is making a comeback.

    Thats the difference between us and much of the rest of the world. The concept of a citizen being responsible for self defense has completely gone away; they stare in horror at what they call those "cowboy Americans", not even realizing that being called a "cowboy" is a good thing to Americans.

    Sure, I am making generalizations here, but it seems like every month or so we get a poster here (usually from Europe) who wants to debate self defense, and is completely baffled by the concept.
     
  12. Jeeper

    Jeeper Member

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    sanofear,

    There are a few previous posts here that had polls about anyone here having drawn a gun in self defense. Do a search and it might change your mind. I personally have drawn my carry piece twice to protect myself. Neither time did I have to fire a shot. The act itself since the scum running the other way. once was even in my backyard. I think you have the typical victim mentality of "it will never happen to me". I do agree with you that justyfing carying because of terrorism is generally stupid. Having a gun because of terrorism isnt stupid. Say one day(which I think will eventually come) a terrorist sets off a nuke or some large bomb in a city. There will be total chaos. Gangs will rule the streets with mob violence(It already happened in LA). Being able to protect yourself will be very important. Of course you come from a place where this type of violence never happens, right?
     
  13. greyhound

    greyhound Member

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    By the way, you are spot on about how our media hypes crime (and really anything sensational.)

    Not just Fox, but all the outlets.

    That does lead some people to believe that danger is around every corner.

    I don't think it describes the minset of gun owners, though. I'd say we are calm, confident, and prepared.

    To look at it from another angle, yes our media hypes everything, but world opinion about America is drawn largely from exposure to our television shows and movies, which is ridiculous.

    Example: my girlfriends church sponsored a refugee family from Afghanistan (who had been living in India for 10 years) and when they got here they burst into tears when they found out you didn't automatically get a big house and a car upon arriving. (Whoever over there prepared them to emigrate oughta be fired, but that another story).
     
  14. sasnofear

    sasnofear member

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    firearms are (due to stuff im not going to bother to go into) quite good and very different to rest of UK, we're allowed pistols, SLR's though actually getting them is tight. firearms toughness to get isn't going to restrict terrorisum....coz they are bought ILLEGALLY from the good old US of A (not solely but quite a few)

    trust me i'd rather have lot laxer firearms laws but i dont think everyone should have an automatic right for one, if you have a criminal record or mentally unstable then no.carrying weapons will in no way snuff out terrorisum i mean we have soldiers with assult rifles and that dosen't stop anything coz they're not going to advertise their presence, they'll wait untill a soldier is off duty get a girl in a pub to lead him out and when he's had a few and he will end up tortured and murdered. so being vigilant dosen't work with these ppl, they may just decide to sit up on a hill with a barnett .50BMg and take ur ??? out.
     
  15. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    Hmmmm ........... well, each to his own I guess.

    Tell ya what SAS ........ and these are boring old examples but .... why do many people wear seat belts? because they just might be in a wreck and it just might save their necks .. better than being without .. their decision tho.

    Why do many people carry insurance?? Not just because the law or mortgage Co says they should ..... but because they might have an event which needs help to put right.

    Why carry a spare tire? Cos one of the others might puncture.

    Insurance (and that's what HD and carry are about) is all based on risk .. yeah?! So - even if the risk is almost infinitesimally small .. better prepared than not IMO. The ''odds'' have to be assessed .... and in many cases risk is very small .... so on occasions I do not insure something because I personally see the risk as worth taking, for me. Equally - when it comes down to defence of the self ..... an innate right ... risk needs assessed.

    I could argue that cos my area is overall pretty safe - why should I bother with the incumbrance of a weapon .. but Murphy proves that even when seeming unlikely s**t happens! Furthermore, as has already been stated ... the mere knowlege by BG's that a percentage of the population carries ... sure as hell makes em think hard ... VERY hard - before trying anything on ..... not to mention the hazards to a BG breaking into a house with guns.

    So - two big things here .. deterance and the opportunity to defend ....... and the latter, for most of us who carry will never happen .. we all hope as much.
     
  16. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    Sasnofear:

    For what it's worth, as an American, I don't generally bother watching most entertainment television. The only show I even really miss is South Park. :) I also try to obtain my news from multiple sources, as a composite view is the only way to minimize media bias and distortion.

    The chances that I'll need to defend my life with a firearm are small. I might never be involved in another auto accident again, either. That said, the investment in protection, averaged over my expected lifespan, is miniscule. Add in the enjoyment I derive from target shooting and the other fringe benefits I enjoy as a shooting hobbyist, and it adds measurable pleasure to my life without causing any additional risk to others.

    My ownership of firearms enables me to more effectively defend myself should I need to do so, makes my life more enjoyable, and does so without causing harm or risk to third parties. Why, then, would anyone see fit to question my firearms ownership?

    Your original question was: "What is the point in home defense guns or concealed carry?"

    The answer, I think, would be: "No more effective means of self-protection exists today, and firearms ownership is one of many, many things a responsible individual can engage in to help ensure a long, happy, free life."
     
  17. ossie

    ossie Member

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    just a few points here from another northern irish person.

    1) Northern Ireland is no warzone, in 1998 there was a peace agreement and since then there has been a time of peace. the only paramilitary violence since then has been related to drug dealing or even punishment beatings. yes, there have been a few minor "dissident paramilitary" bomb attacks, but if i remember correctly, no real damage or any death was caused.

    2) the terrorists in palestine/israel don't go about advertising their presence, and they don't care if they die or not. a concealed weapon will do nothing to prevent some random person walking down the street detonating his "martyr's shroud". moving that to the situation as it was in Northern Ireland, if i was allowed to walk down the streets of Belfast carrying an MP5 i would be powerless to prevent a bomb attack by any of the paramilitary organisations. What can a gun do to a truck filled with explosives? Nothing.
    and on a recent visit of mine to Moscow I walked past the local police and army members carrying fully automatic weapons all over the streets. It hasn't stopped the Chechens, has it?

    3) while it may be a common occurence in the good ol' USA for a group of armed men bursting into peoples houses and gunning down the occupants such as in Wichita, KS, just doesn't happen here or in the UK or when it does it happens very rarely.


    In conclusion, I can accept people having weapons in their houses for protection of their family and property, but i can not understand the need for people to carry concealed weapons around in their daily lives. in my opinion, if in a carjacking situation, and you have a gun pulled on you. the fact you have a gun could cause your death, all it takes is one trigger happy criminal and you're gone. Concealed weapons cause more problems than they prevent.
     
  18. Mark Tyson

    Mark Tyson Member

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    I seriously doubt that most of us in the US need guns to defend ourselves from terrorists. The exception would be a prominent or wealthy individual; he/she can afford a security staff anyway.

    But home defense, that's another matter. There are plenty of cases of home invasion robberies where the criminals come in armed with the intent of taking the family temporarily hostage. These are not uncommon here in the US. Robberies on the street, carjackings and the like are also quite common. While a criminal could get the drop on you, alert victims can usually see the warning signs of an impending attack and prepare a defense. There is significant evidence that concealed weapons in the hands of citizens reduce crime, though this is a source of controversy.

    The Chechen example is a poor analogy by the way. The Russian army is causing more terrorism through its incompotence and brutality than it is preventing. I would imagine that ordinary Chechen citizens probably do need guns to protect themselves from widespread banditry in the area.
     
  19. ossie

    ossie Member

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    it's not meant to be an analogy, it's just telling it how it is.

    armed men in moscow can't stop terrorists bombing the city, therefore what good would it be for me to carry a gun? i wouldn't be able to stop a bomb either.

    and i'm not talking about chechens in chechnya, i'm talking about Russians in their capital city. Think, Afghans or Iraqis (yes, i know Russia in Chechnya is acting worse than US forces in Iraq/Afghanistan), in Washington, DC.
     
  20. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    I guess there will be some need to ''agree to disagree'' on this one in particular. It is something I have heard so many times ...... as if the carrying of a piece is some sorta ''invite'' for trouble!!

    let us remind ourselves that .. bad guys will always have and obtain guns ....... is there any doubt about that? By definition, a bad guy is one who refutes the law .. and is little concerned at all with upholding same. The legit carry individual however is the opposite .. someone who is law abiding, responsible .. and sure as hell never lookin for a fight .. far from it. So how that seems likely to "cause more problems than they prevent" - I don't follow.

    The deterance aspect too is all too easily forgotten ..... but oh well ..... as I said ... we have to agree to disagree because on some of these aspects we reach an ''impasse'' ....

    You NI guys could do worse than read a very long thread on here about the right to keep and bear arms, started last June ... sadly I cannot personally find the link right now (anyone??) .... but many erudite members added contributions there and it would be worth your while to try and read it all.
     
  21. Pebcac

    Pebcac Member

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    This actually made me laugh out loud. Where do you get your information? I would venture to say that this is a case of either your own media blowing something out of proportion, or you've been exposed to a little too much Michael Moore-type hype. I don't think that the IRA and its spin-offs have been getting many of their fully-automatic Eastern-bloc weapons from the USA. Communist countries virtually handed the things out for free to their oppressed ideological "brethren." If you are actually living in Northern Ireland, I'd think you would know that.

    As for me, I'll not take advice from a subject of a country which no longer recognizes the right to self-defense. Submit, indeed. If you think that home-invasion robbery happens more in the US on a percentage basis, perhaps you should take your local paper more often. Rural areas, Yorkshire for example, have seen an explosion of home invasions over the last couple of years. Violent crime is way, way up in the UK. An internet news search would be enlightening.

    A pistol won't protect me from terrorist attack. But it can help me ward off an armed robbery, whether it's in my home or at the ATM. I think Europeans have the idea that all Americans are swaggering John Wayne types with hero complexes. Not so. Most of us are just trying to live our lives, but many of us are not willing to submit to some thug with a knife or cheap pistol in the hopes that we won't be harmed.
     
  22. Watchman

    Watchman Member

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    Any point in guns for self defence?

    Yep. Try to rob me and find out.

    I carry because I can. Most citizens in this world cant legally carry or own the so called dreaded "assault" rifle. I can and do.

    One of the few things that makes America a great place to live.

    In truth though, I wouldnt expect a foreigner to understand the logic behind being able to defend oneself as the principle of self defense has been pretty much outlawed in most countires.
     
  23. riverdog

    riverdog Member

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    But the more good people who are armed, the better those odds become. While it's true that the odds of terrorists deciding to go one-on-one with a regular guy are fairly small, you gotta do what you can to change the odds.

    As for the much more likely home invasion problem: more and more these are "leave no witnesses behind" type crimes. They can break-in, rob you and kill you, or they can break-in and be met with four rounds of 00 Buck followed by .45 cal rounds. I see myself as a very unlikely target, generally low profile, good locks and doors with a tough approach. Still, there is no point in not being prepared for a worse case scenario. I own the firearms and shoot; why not keep a couple at the ready?
    Do you have any facts to back up that statement. I see concealed weapons as tilting the odds away from the bad guy, forcing him to accept a higher risk or move on. In some carjackings they take the occupants as well as the car. This is a bad situation because once removed from a crowd, you are in trouble.

    With an armed public, the odds are higher that the BG will find someone who is armed; this is not a good thing for him. The BG can't accept a shoot-out because any serious injury gets him arrested (or dead). OTOH, if I was shot in a carjacking shootout, I could dial 911, get help and talk to LE at the hospital. Sure, by taking the initiative and starting the shoot-out, I increase my odds of being shot, but I might get killed anyway. May as well fight it out in a public place where help is a lot closer.

    Or you can acquiesce and hope for the best, putting you life and hopes in the hands of a felon, a carjacker in need of a fix.
     
  24. RikWriter

    RikWriter Member

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    Wow, really? I guess the time my father and I backed off a guy trying to break down our front door by pointing rifles at him didn't occur then. And I will be sure to tell my best friend that the time he scared off those carjackers with his concealed-carry handgun didn't actually happen either.
    :rolleyes:
     
  25. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    Concealed weapons don't cause anything, my friend. Trust me on this, I've concealed handguns on my person and in my home for years, and not once has a single handgun jumped out and tried to bite me or a guest.

    Concealed weapons in the hands of criminals cause more problems than they prevent, and concealed weapons in the hands of reasonable men solve more problems than they cause.
     
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