Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Any Recommendations Of Resources For Israeli Shooting Method Training?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by ATTHECROSS, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. ATTHECROSS

    ATTHECROSS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Hello Everyone -
    Just wondering if anyone would care to recommend any books, dvd's etc. that teach the Israeli shooting method and they felt was worth the money. Thanks for the comments.
     
  2. Matthew Temkin

    Matthew Temkin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,080
    Location:
    NYC
    Also check out the DVDs by Garrett Machine.
    There are also a lot of tidbits from Albert Timen on Youtube
    This guy is likewise excellent.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  3. Matthew Temkin

    Matthew Temkin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,080
    Location:
    NYC
    This DVD is still offers for sale—good stuff.
     
  4. george29

    george29 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Land of Entrapment
    So Israeli's developed their specific method of carrying under condition 3 (Soldiers carry off duty Condition 4) due to the risk of an accidental discharge. Police officers, including Yamam carry condition 3 only. It is a great method IF you train for it exclusively and you think you will always have time to rack the slide or you believe your weak arm will never be disabled. Israel is largely a peaceful society, citizens think nothing of arguing with police officers and rarely is a gun drawn by either side.
    One cannot compare the US and Israel in this respect, here, when a police officer needs his gun he needs it immediately (many times) and many times due to a traffic stop where there just isn't time to rack the slide.
    The Israel police sidearm is usually the FN MKIII or the Jericho with the frame mounted safety. Officers may carry a personal weapon but it must be in 9mm and the officer must qualify with it, Most officers buy either their own FN MKIII or a Glock 17/19.
    These weapons are chosen due to ergonomics and magazine capacity and caliber, they are also very comfortable to carry in condition 3 due to the ease in which to rack the slide without being encumbered by slide mounted safeties.
    One of my jobs took me there a long time ago and I was involved in certain aspects with the Israel Police so this is first hand knowledge.
    A book will not teach you much, I would just watch it on youtube and then practice.
    If I owned a Glock or an FN MKIII I would carry condition 3 .If I do choose to carry a semi auto it is my 1911 in condition 1, having said that I carry a revolver.
     
    tcj, ATTHECROSS and Matthew Temkin like this.
  5. ATTHECROSS

    ATTHECROSS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Thanks to both George29 and Matthew Tomkin. Love that first hand knowledge that you speak of george29. Thanks for saving me the money of buying a book on this method. Much appreciated. George29... do you feel that the Israeli "stance" and method is worth pursuing through practice? Thanks everyone
     
  6. george29

    george29 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Land of Entrapment
    I don't use it mainly because I carry a revolver and my only SD Semi-automatic is a 1911 (carried condition 1). I know that (all) US police officers that carry Glocks carry with a round in the chamber and that there are very few AD / ND's and perhaps that's because the weapon is carried in a well made holster that retains the pistol under rigorous conditions and the weapon is only drawn when actually needed.
    I once bought a Glock 17 and hated it but the 19 I think is better suited for EDC providing one buys the proper equipment (true for all handguns but more so for a handgun without a safety other than that little latch on the trigger).
    I can see using the Israeli method with a Glock if the Glock is my HD gun and it occupies my bed (just as my 340 does - see attached photo) 20170929_152724.jpg I don't want to shoot myself whilst asleep and that almost happened to me once when my then carry gun was a Beretta 85 that got slapped by me thinking it was the alarm clock (which was right next to the Beretta, luckily the Beretta was pointing the other direction and put a hole in the wall and not me). So yes, condition 3 has its place at times but as has been pointed out throughout the years both on THR and other places, Condition 3 means you assume your weak hand is functional (and not fending off a knife for example or wounded) and that you have assessed the situation early enough that you have time to draw and rack instead of being surprised (which is the most likely scenario).
    The Israeli Police train to run up to a terrorist still in condition 3 closing the distance to about 7 yards before they get into a firing stance whilst racking the slide pointing and shooting. They also train using only the front sight due to the method of how they rack and point and because they are taught to close the distance to ensure hits it also reduces the possibility of an erred shot where a civilian can get hit. It is a very aggressive method of self defense that will probably get you into trouble here in the US.
    So no, I don't think that the Israeli method is useful for us here in the US except for HD and only if one sleeps with his gun.
     
  7. ATTHECROSS

    ATTHECROSS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Can i ask about the accuracy associated with the israeli stance and method. Once a fellow has trained with the israeli methid is it more accurate than others? I have been shooting long gun for a long time and i am much more accurate with the rifle. I have been shooting pistol for several years but my accuracy is more on the lines that i would do more damage to a foe if i just threw the pistol at him rather than trying to hit him with a round :). So i am trying to improve that. Thank you george29
     
  8. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    5,201
    I've read some reasons the Israelis carry Condition 3. The most logical has to do with a "diversified" logistic situation.

    After Israel became it's own country (and for some time after) there were a variety of handguns in an armory. They might have High Powers, Lugers, P38s, 1911s, Berettas, etc all issued from the same armory to a variety of people. Condition 3 carry was settled on to standardize training for a lot of people. Many of these people are not gin people. Carry any semiautomatic pistol in Condition 3 with the safety off and when you draw and rack the slide you're ready for action. Not the fastest way to get a gun in action but very safe for carry.

    This makes sense when you think about it. It doesn't account for how you rack the slide if you only have use of one hand. Other training can accommodate that but it still isn't fast.

    Many have this mystique about if it's the way the Israelis do it, it has to be the best. This isn't one of those techniques.

    JMO
     
    drobs and george29 like this.
  9. george29

    george29 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Land of Entrapment
    The thing is, and I'm not trying to be racist, Jews don't like guns, not even in Israel. It's a necessity to them there. To prove this point, Israel has very few shooting clubs, very few collectors and it is very hard to get a carry license unless one meets the very stringent requirements. If one does meet these requirements then one is allowed to buy one handgun (never a rifle, though one can buy one shotgun for hunting providing one takes the hunters course and most Jews don't hunt). Ammunition is limited to 100 rounds from time of purchase until the license expires. One may buy ammo at a range to shoot at the range only, but it's very expensive. Basically, they're not really good shots with pistols either which is why they developed the Condition 3 - close the gap - draw - rack - fire. (YAMAM and YASSAM are the exception but they only recruit from level 7 military units).
    You have the advantage here of getting as much affordable help as you want. Take a course, get a .22 and perfect your shooting. I don't think the Israelis should be teaching us anything regarding shooting or Homeland Security or Law Enforcement. Much of what many believe is steeped in myth. An Officer in Albuquerque or Chicago faces more danger in a week than the Israeli cop in his career.
    The big difference between us and them is we have a Constitution to guide us, the Israelis have laws and guidelines. They are more successful at certain things (like airport security) because they profile, we aren't allowed to. Their doctrine is eliminating a threat, ours is disengaging or stopping a threat. SWAT is a life saving force; YAMAM is a life taking force. SWAT has negotiators to peacefully end a situation, YAMAM has negotiators to distract the suspect. In Israel, one must give a verbal warning at least once, a warning shot and then a shot to disable not kill. YAMAM is exempt from this.
    What works for them works for them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  10. ATTHECROSS

    ATTHECROSS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Is there a specific style/method of shooting pistol that one can learn and develop muscle memory for that I can check out. Every time I shoot pistol I try different things which is not productive. Thanks
     
  11. george29

    george29 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Land of Entrapment
    It's all in the way you grip the gun. For the most part, choke a revolver (high and tight) and strangle a pistol (meaty web of your shooting hand high under the tang). Squeeze don't jerk. Breathe out, breathe in, let out a bit, hold, squeeze. Get a gun that fits. Not all guns fit everyone.
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    8,016
    Do you have some basis for that contention?
     
  13. jeepnik

    jeepnik Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,615
    Location:
    SoCal
    I though the foolishness of this was exposed decades ago. Condition three is for the less bright or those under orders to do so.

    Many moons ago a newly minted lieutenant told a bunch of us we had to carry our 1911's condition three. We nodded and went right on carrying condition one. It didn't take long for the lieutenant to figure out that the stateside rules regarding readiness condition of a 1911 didn't really apply when someone might just have the audacity to shoot at you.

    Heck, I know at least one fellow who carried condition zero. Never had an AD. Could it be that the grip safety actually did what it was supposed to do. How about that, a mechanical safety actually working. Who'd have thought.
     
  14. Matthew Temkin

    Matthew Temkin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,080
    Location:
    NYC
     
  15. ATTHECROSS

    ATTHECROSS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Thanks for the follow up Matthew Temkin
     
    Matthew Temkin likes this.
  16. george29

    george29 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Land of Entrapment
    I do, but it's a general statement which means there are exceptions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  17. strambo

    strambo Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,929
    Location:
    Oregon
    The best thing you could do it get some professional training for a solid foundation that you can then practice on your own. It can be a local course, need not involve travel or a big expense. It will pay for itself in not wasting ammo doing inefficient things on your own.

    The thing about practicing the "Israeli Method"/Condition 3 enough to make it viable is...that if you truly put in enough reps to be able to do that under the life or death stress of combat (unconscious competence), you could have just spent the same amount of time on condition 1 carry and overcome any perceived safety issues anyway.
     
    george29 likes this.
  18. Matthew Temkin

    Matthew Temkin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,080
    Location:
    NYC
    You can carry chamber loaded and still practice the Israeli method but there are other methods of using both aimed and point shooting besides how it is done by the Israelis.
    Check out Rob Pincus and his Combat Focus classes.
     
  19. jeepnik

    jeepnik Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,615
    Location:
    SoCal
    Among the issues with condition 3 carry that has always occurred to me is how do you rack the slide when you are at or near contact distance.

    In condition 1 you can remove the safety and fire using one hand while using the other to fend off your attacker.

    In condition 3 you are somehow going to need to get both hands on your pistol to manipulate the slide leaving you at the mercy of your attacker.

    I suppose one could start back pedaling, but it's much easier and faster for the attacker to keep in close contact moving forward that to break contact moving rearward. Sideways movement would accomplish nothing.

    And the last thing you would want to do is turn and run to increase the distance, even assuming you attacker didn't follow and attack you from the rear. He could simply shoot you before you had take even a step or two.

    Of course, you could use you empty chambered handgun as a club. Unless it is a piece of fantastic plastic. They tend to make poor clubs compared to a steel 1911.
     
    george29 likes this.
  20. PabloJ

    PabloJ Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,279

    There is no such thing as INSTINCTIVE shooting anything. The carrying on empty chamber only works in military police states where citizens in exchange for giving up "little" in convenience can live in relative safety (think of it like living in a minimum security fenced jail where "white collar" criminals are serving their time). Trying to find training on this carrying on empty chamber stupidity is complete waste of time & money.
     
  21. Jenrick

    Jenrick Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,759
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I will say that the Israeli method of point/instinctive shooting does have some validity.

    1) The US military has gotten a lot better about mandating condition 3 or 4, but it is still done in a lot of situations. Call it stupid or whatever you like. There is a solider, airman, seaman, etc. right now somewhere in the world with a gun condition 3. We are horrible about training people how to get from condition 3 to condition 0/1 mainly treating it as an admin item. Please note I absolutely do not advocate carrying condition 3, I am saying it is a reality for some people though.

    2) The technique is based on a large series of gross body movement and positions, that help centralize and and secure the pistol directly in front of the body. You an make hits at 5-10 yards with your eyes closed and no prior shooting experience with this method. That is valuable when you have to teach a lot of people how to be reasonably deadly with a pistol in limited amount of training time. You are never going to train a world champion IPSC shooter this way, but a gunfight isn't a practical shooting match. We use training methodology here in the US for LE training that can produce very high level shooters (I'm a professional full time LE firearms instructor), but we nationally still average right around a 30% hit rate. I'd wager Israel's is about the same, and WAY faster to teach and easier to sustain.

    There are other systems out there that are similar in performance and teaching time. There's no magic secret to the formula of square up to the target, lock the gun out directly in front of you, hold on like your life depends on it, and hammer the trigger. It happens to work pretty well too in the reality of most shootings. Particularly with LE in the US, you are either responding to an ambush, in which case how you shoot has little bearing on your success (that is largely determined by the suspects lack of competence), or you are engaging a threat who is not aware of you presences. Very rarely, do we get into a "gunfight" as the media portrays them.

    -Jenrick
     
    Matthew Temkin and Golf-21-Bravo like this.
  22. ATTHECROSS

    ATTHECROSS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Thanks Jenrick. Very informative and much appreciated!
     
  23. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,820
    There is no reason that you can't safely carry a loaded firearm with a round in the chamber. Every police officer in the United States carries their gun that way every time they put it on. These debates regularly come up around here, but I think they most often come from a position of fear from folks who aren't accustomed to carrying a loaded gun on their person at all times. I'll admit that carrying a loaded and holstered gun seemed a bit weird when I first started doing it, but it seems perfectly reasonable now.

    I carry a Glock every single day, and have done so every single day for the past 15 years. These guns have no external safeties that need to be manipulated by the shooter, and they're perfectly safe to carry chambered. The Israeli method has always seemed like a solution in search of a problem, and one that slows you down in a situation where you actually need the gun.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017 at 2:51 PM
    george29 likes this.
  24. Jenrick

    Jenrick Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,759
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I think people focus way too heavily on the carrying condition 3 part of what the Israeli's teach, versus the actual running of the gun. If you carry condition 1 (which I do, and recommend) nothing changes except you don't rack the slide when you draw if you shoot in the Israeli manner.

    -Jenrick
     
    Matthew Temkin likes this.

Share This Page