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Any runners on the forum? SD tools while running.

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by gossamer, Feb 5, 2013.

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  1. gossamer

    gossamer Member

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    Jeez. Did you actually read what John wrote? I can't speak for him, but I think he was saying leadcounsel's "sympathies are obviously unneccessary, pretentious, and boorish."

    Let's make this clear:

    (1) If I wanted a recommendation for a gun to carry while running or how best to carry a gun while running, I would have posted this in a forum other than the one entitled: "Non-Firearm Weapons" The fact that I DID ask the question here should be a very clear indicator that I do not want a recommendation on carrying a concealed firearm while running.

    (2) I'm just spitballing here, but I think that of everyone on this forum that I MAYbe the most qualified to know what I can and cannot conceal while I'm running in my area to be in compliance with our law. Neither a t-shirt nor underwear will conceal a gun when I am running.
     
  2. lobo9er

    lobo9er Member

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    Sure but you cant even carry your cell phone comfortably, so what self defense Item is going to be smaller, lighter and still be effective? So from what I'm gathering unless you change your attire your not gonna carry much. You don't where a shirt so a neck knife is out. A hard plastic krambit or other impact weapon maybe an option. You are looking for a self defense item am I wrong?
     
  3. ssmith1187

    ssmith1187 Member

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    "I was responding to the idea that long runs are slower than short runs. They simply aren't. Anyone who runs distance with regularity understands that the whole point is not to vary your pace that much."

    Actually you should...but that's a topic for a different thread ;-)

    I saw a reference to it, but didn't see a link provided:

    http://www.kimberamerica.com/pepperblaster

    All the best,
    Steve
     
  4. gossamer

    gossamer Member

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    The Kimberly pepper blaster will fit in the pocket of my running shorts. So it looks like the best option thus far.

    Thanks to all who alerted me to it and other viable options.

    Steve. Thanks for the heads up.
    Yes. Changing pace among runs is one way to train. (Please note I clarified what I meant later, in resp. To John's comment.) It's not the only way to train. Successfully training for and completing multiple marathons has shown me that my method of training works for me at this stage in my development. Right down to my clothing choices. I'm by no means an ultrarunner, so there's a lot more to learn and a lot further to go.

    YMMV ... literally
     
  5. ssmith1187

    ssmith1187 Member

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    The Kimber has a fairly stout belt/pocket clip and I have worn it clipped on the outside of my running shorts and surprisingly it was barely noticeable nor did it bounce too much.

    If you go that route, hopefully it will be successful for you too.

    All the best,
    Steve
     
  6. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    That was my take, too. Then again, I don't tell women what firearm they "should" own/carry for defense, either. :rolleyes: (My SIL really liked the AK she shot last weekend. It'll probably be what she reaches for first in her house. Since it also had the least penetration of the three calibers she shot, AND the most power, AND she always hit the target, it's a fine choice.)

    John
     
  7. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    I'm not much of a runner any more, and I hated running when I was on active duty. But I do have some thoughts on this.

    I first thought of a small folding knife, like a folding utility razor. Most are pocket clipped, and would have a tendency to slip off the waist band of running shorts. If you could secure it better than just with the clip, it's a wicked deterrant.

    I also thought of a small impact tool, like a kubaton, but against an angry dog, it would be both ineffective and puts your hand and forearm way too close to the mouth of said angry dog. Against humans, it might serve better, but I'd carry a knife over an impact tool if size and weight are critical.

    A willow switch (I think someone else mentioned this early on) is light weight, and stings like crazy. Might be effective against a dog, might be effective against a human.


    The Kimber pepper blaster is light weight and effective against all sorts of critters. I don't know how well they carry, though. But that seems like it may be your best option. A custom Kydex holster with an elastic strap to secure it like a wrist band might be a great way to go.

    I don't know where you reside, so I'm spitballing here on what you can carry openly.
     
  8. kBob

    kBob Member

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    The reason I said some dogs are not bothered by pepper spray is my direct personal experience.

    The dog was my own Black Lab.

    It had a digging problem and someone at the vets office thought using peper spray on the area he dug would discourage him. He came up while I was spraying the area while I was wearing an m-17A1 mask. He sniffed and licked at my hand with the pepper sray in it.

    I then sprayed the air between us and he began to show play signs and snap at the cloud like snapping at a fly.

    Concerned that the spray I had bought for my wife was not effective (where she works no guns and no BHKs and she had recieved direct threats) I sprayed the dog directly. This lead to more play behavior.

    Now keep in mind I had several sprays at the dirt actually two in the air between me and the dog and one directly in the dogs face and the dog was n play mode.

    Believing the spray to be completely defective I removed my mask.

    The spray was far more effective than any CS, CN, or DM I have been exposed to in the open, in chambers or even CS crystals on the face. On me. The dog, unaffected, was now sure we were playing at the dog/ boy wrestling game as I was on all fours attempting to reach the back door and hose without falling or running into something. Eric rolled and gummed me repeatedly, tail wagging the whole time until my wife noticed the strangled screaming and called the dog away.

    Had the dog been not in a playful mood he could have eaten me.

    This is why I do not trust OC for dog control. People yes. Dogs no.

    There, you have now read of someones direct personal experience of OC dog failure.

    Ended up having to pave the area with hardware cloth to stop the digging as he was after my well pump and in danger of digging up under ground power lines. Eric was a good friend for many years and passed peacefully in his sleep a few years after he pepper sprayed me.

    -kBob
     
  9. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Only a knife - eh, not so much.

    If you INSIST on just carrying a knife, and only wear shoes, shorts, and socks, then you'll need some sort of clipdraw for your waistband. Can't believe that you couldn't figure that out on your own. If you're willing to add a tshirt to the mix, then you can carry a neckdraw like the Becker Necker knife.

    Most people would agree that any 3" blade, while better than nothing, is not a very serious or effective SD weapon.

    On a run, the threats you'd likely encounter are 1) vicious dog, or 2) violent people (not the type wanting to just rob you, because well clearly you don't have anything worth just taking), or 3) being disabled and left for dead (such as being hit by a car, or another injury - in which case you'd be in too poor of condition to put up a fight).

    A small knife is just inadequate for the likely threats you'd encounter. A vicious dog or violent armed person will not effectively be stopped by a 3" blade.

    I carry a small belly pouch, with a color copy of my DL and CPL and a G27 with hollowpoints. Don't even notice the extra 1lb of weight. Your body will quickly adjust to the weight.

    If it happens to make your run harder slightly, then look it as great training. When you run a race for real, you'll feel that much lighter because you can leave it in the car.

    If you're too obsessed with your training run time to care that carrying a gun may add a few seconds of time per mile, then I'd suggest re-prioritizing your life. What's more important? Self defense and a 6 minute mile, or disarmed and a 5:50 mile?

    I'm not trying to offend, just offer my insight.
    http://www.pistolwear.com/

    I use this and it works well. Conceals well too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  10. Kayaker 1960

    Kayaker 1960 Member

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    Knife

    At close distance a knife,properly used can be every bit as effective as a gun. A SHARP 3" blade slashed across the wrist will cut tendons, making the arm worthless and leading to quick bleed out if not cared for promply. A slash across the throat, well, no need to discuss further. In general slashing cuts are more effective than stabs. In protecting you furry friend from a large/agressive dog you can easily sever the tendon on a dogs back leg, making the leg useless, of course slashing a dogs throat or a direct stab into the heart works too.
    The knife must be kept very sharp and you need handle it enough to open it without fumbling with it.
     
  11. Kayaker 1960

    Kayaker 1960 Member

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  12. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    The attitude in those statements is contradictory.
     
  13. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Hardly a fair comparison.

    1. The attacker had an 8"-10" Kbar style knife.
    2. None of the cops were willing to use deadly force, despite having long guns. Any one of them could have stopped the knife attacker long before he closed on them.
    3. The attacker got in several repeated deep stabs on a prone victim. A 3" blade would have been much less effective, even if you could get into that position.
    4. The attacker was on the offensive, not the defensive, against people who were trying to NOT injure or shoot him. It would have ended differently if the cops WANTED to injure or kill him. They merely would have shot him or buttstroked him and it would have been over.

    It takes some serious training to be good with a knife.
     
  14. blaisenguns

    blaisenguns Member

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    I carry a LCP in a pocket holster, No issues as long as the pockets on the shorts are ok. I tried an IWB holster but it had a tendency to ride up and fall out (not good).
     
  15. gossamer

    gossamer Member

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    Where did I say I insist on only carrying a knife? Hint: I never said any such thing. I can't believe you couldn't figure that out on your own through basic reading comprehension.

    Have you conducted a poll, or is this just more of you substituting your opinion for other people's judgement?


    Again, your generalization.


    I wouldn't be lecturing others about their judgement of defensive carry tools if i was the guy with a Glock in his butt pack, not trying to offend, that's just my insight. (Tongue in cheek. Get it?)


    Without going down the rabbit hole, the science says it doesn't work that way.

    You've previously demonstrated that you don't much care for someone else's judgement about their own situation. Telling someone to re-prioritze their life so they can make the false choice between personal security and personal responsibility isn't "insight" - it's egotism.

    Just because you own a hammer doesn't mean every task is carpentry.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  16. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Well Gossamer, you've asked questions that I've tried to help with, but you don't like the answer. You've asked about non-firing weapons and I've given you MY opinion - which has been developed from years of trying to crack this very nut.

    Weapons come in limited flavors - you may read this as condescending. It's not meant to be. Bludgeoning, cutting/stabbing, and projectiles.

    Staying within the limits of practicality for running, that eliminates most bludgeoning weapons, other than a small bo staff that you could run with, maybe slung to your back or something.... it also elminates knives over 3.5" for most regions due to laws, which most locals prohibit anything larger than 3"-4". I have trained by running with a pack and had a 3.25" knife strapped to the shoulder harness of the pack. (But I also carried a handgun in the pack - which is admittedly too slow to draw.). So practically speaking, you're left with small knives, small/light concealable handguns, or OC spray (or maybe even a taser...)

    You mentioned OC spray. I can say it is very effective on most people, with first hand experience. Due to stray dogs, when I walk my dogs, I also carry a can of OC spray that has a nice 'fogger' spray. It's about the size of a water bottle, and would fit in one of those fanny pack style devices.

    If you're concerned about dogs attacking you, and if you've never seen dogs fight, they are unbelievably quick and would be a difficult target to 'hit' with conventional weapons. The trick must be situational awareness, which means no headphones and loud music, so you can defend before the dog gets to you. With dogs especially, distance is your friend.

    I'm merely offering suggestions, no need to get pissy. Of course this is MY experience offering to YOU to help YOU. Don't take it so personally when someone disagrees with you.
     
  17. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    If you're that fast over distances up to 20 miles, why not just run away?

    But seriously, what "I'm out running" scenarios can you dream up that have you legitimately drawing a weapon of some kind rather than just outrunning the bad guy? For that matter, show me the bad guy who randomly goes after the obviously fit adult male dressed in running gear, churning out 7:20 miles, and obviously not carrying a wad of cash or anything else of value because--duh--he's out running. That bad guy could, and will, choose a much softer and probably more lucrative target.

    Dogs don't think that way, and they are faster than even the OP, but they don't like pepper spray: at least most don't.

    The only time a fast and fit male runner is really vulnerable is when he runs past blind corners and such (and most of those are avoidable) and when he stops. Having a gun readily accessible once you reach home might make sense in case you get followed, but if you can't figure out that you're being followed and aren't wise enough to not go home in such cases but go into a public place instead, then there's little I can offer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  18. gossamer

    gossamer Member

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    I'm not sure if this is addressed to me or not. Nonetheless, you raise a good point. My situational awareness - having run this route roughly 300 times in the last two years at all times of day and evening without even something as "valuable" as a cheap music player - tells me that the threats deadly enough to merit lethal force are not as likely as threats that warrant non-lethal force. That situational awareness is why I'm posting in this non-firearm forum.

    The greatest likelihood that my awareness of the situation informs me of is the unleashed dogs I spoke of in my very first post.

    Which is why I've repeated the thanks from people who suggested the Kimber item.
     
  19. Recon Ron

    Recon Ron Member

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    Tape your nipples and buy this:

    rkb1.jpg

    Carrying a gun became a lot more practical.
     
  20. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    Recon, that would produce really laughable tan lines this spring.
     
  21. Recon Ron

    Recon Ron Member

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    Men need support too!
     
  22. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Gossamer...I carry my Kershaw Skyline knife.
    Light,the easiest flipper balde I have found,and the G-10 scales are very grippy even with sweaty hands.
    At a certain park I carry my Kel-Tec P32.
     
  23. Stress_Test

    Stress_Test Member

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    I've pondered the same question about how to carry while running, and never did come up with any good answers, for the summer time anyway. Winter time I might be able to put my LCR in my jacket pocket, but it would get annoying real quick constantly slapping against my torso. And I wouldn't quite trust the pocket stitching to hold up to mile after mile of having the gun's weight bouncing up and down in there.

    In the summer time, pocket carry is out. Belt carry is no good, no belt with running shorts and would chafe like crazy anyway. Thought about a belly band (?) or something elastic but wouldn't trust the gun and everything to stay put when running. Thought about a shoulder holster worn under the shirt, but as the OP said, when you sweat and soak the shirt, any object concealed underneath will be plain as day; and I live in the southeast, so most any run in the summer months means looking like you jumped in a lake with your clothes on. Also means I wouldn't want to wear a gun against my body cause it'd be drenched in sweat for long durations.

    The only other option I can think of would be a fanny pack of some sort, BUT, ironically that may make you more of a target for mugging because people would assume you've got a wallet and/or cash in there. May be able to hide it somewhat under a baggy shirt though, but not perfect.

    It's a tough dilemma regardless.
     
  24. bayesian

    bayesian Member

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    As a runner that has to deal with GA summers, I'll say that I'm not carrying a darned thing. I'm going to assume that the types of things that i'm likely to encounter are, for the period that I'm running, manageable. Sometimes in life, you've gotta balance your risks and benefits. I'm running through some neighborhoods that aren't the best, but it is clear that I'm not a great target (what are they going to take?), and if there's a stray savage dog, then I guess I've decided that the cost of carrying something in the event that this happens is greater than the benefit. I'm guessing that even through the areas I'm running, that my risks are higher for either an 'adverse cardiac event' or being hit by a car, than being attacked by a dog or robbed.

    All of the data that I have definitely supports this, so I run with my New Balance shorts with a ICE phone number written on the tab on the shorts, dry fit shirt, single key in my socks, and nothing else. 15 years and this has been fine.
     
  25. Ehtereon11B

    Ehtereon11B internet infantryman

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    I have a waistline (dare I say it Fannypack) that I slip my ID, house key, gym card, etc. into when going on runs or workouts. Fits a small NAA .22Mag perfectly without bouncing around too much. Better than pepper spray and way better than nothing.
     
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