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Any suspicions about electronic 4473 forms?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by 12Pump, Sep 28, 2013.

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  1. Magnuumpwr

    Magnuumpwr Member

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    Friday I purchased a Colt LE6920 MP from Walmart and filled out my first electronic 4473. It was different but if used enough, will be just like your computer, laptop, or smart phone.
    As to the belief that the government is or is not keeping a record of gun sales, does having the serial number versus just knowing what you purchased make a difference? When contacting NICS for the background check, what makes you think they can't keep a record of that? I don't care if they do or not, just saying!
     
  2. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    I could make a big difference if they fat-finger the number when searching the database for a murder weapon or gun found at the scene of a big drug deal or something, and your number comes up as a false-positive.
     
  3. 76Highboy

    76Highboy Member

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    IMO it really does not matter. I purchased a pistol about 20 years ago and everything was on paper. I then sold it to a responsible military man and never saw the gun again. Earlier this year I was contacted by Chicago police (I live in Idaho) and was told the gun had been used in a crime.

    Long story short, they were able to trace it back to me. If they want they can find anything. So far the law knows I have a hunting license, and CCW licence, and they know even more then I could even imagine.

    The crime is not that they can get away with doing this on computer now. The crime is our government has much more power then they should be allowed to have.
     
  4. justice06rr

    justice06rr Member

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    No I don't avoid it. I've actually bought a couple of long guns at Walmart already using their new computerized system.

    Believe me, if the government wanted a list of the firearms owned/bought in a LGS with a 4473, they'd already have it. With all the bs going around regarding the NSA leaks and government spying on the people, I wouldn't be surprised if they already have access to that info anyway--paper or not.

    As far as being walked out by a manager when you buy a gun, that is usually store policy from most big box stores. Nothing to be all bent out of shape about, they are just doing their job. If you don't like it, then don't buy there. Simple as that.
     
  5. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    But it would take some shoe-leather, they couldn't just punch a button and call up the list.
     
  6. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I care a lot about this subject and I care a lot about what is permanently recorded from NICs checks. I never particularly liked the paper 4473's. The electronic forms will make it easier for the govenment to acquire the forms should they wish to regardless of current law. Laws change and easily retreivable digital data will exist should the powers wish to acquire it. All it takes is a stroke of the pen.

    The other side of the coin is that I believe the govenment already knows that I am a firearm owner or am likely to be one simply because I have a HCP in my state. If the need or justification arises, there is little that I can do about search & seizures.
     
  7. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

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    This.

    Paper form or no deal. My LGS refuses to go to electronic forms (which the ATF has been pushing) because it could be copied so easily.
     
  8. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    22-rimfire,

    +1.

    I think very few folks realize the power of the Federal Government and the extent of the systems ALREADY in place to get all the information they need.

    So you buy your guns cash only privately, don't use credit cards for gun related products but like many of us enjoyed reading about guns so you subscribe to a magazine or two. Doesn't even have to be a gun magazine but a general sports mag such as Field & Stream as you really are a fisherman.

    Well the Post Office recently stated it photographs ALL pieces of mail it processes. Considering the volume of mail they process this would require a hugh data base and a means of retrieving the information.

    And on the cover of the magazine is your name and address.

    Hummm, the tinfoil doesn't help on this one.
     
  9. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

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    BSA, there is a huge difference between knowing someone is interested in guns and having a copy of every single 4473 with serial # they've ever filled out.
     
  10. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    I personally would have no problem buying a firearm on an e4473, but DoD performs an insanely thorough background check on me every five years so my life is an open book anyway. Then there are the FFL renewals every three years, the CHL, the stuff on Form 4's...

    OTOH I have customers who work as network/database administrators in several different 3-letter FedGov agencies, who have specifically requested that we not move to e4473's. I also have 20+ years in FedGov IT as a contractor (code monkey, DBA, and server administrator) so I know that while the law says X, it's all too easy to do Y, and most IT folks don't or won't know gun laws well enough to realize that what they're being asked to do isn't kosher.
     
  11. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    BSA, there is a huge difference between knowing someone is interested in guns and having a copy of every single 4473 with serial # they've ever filled out.

    Quite to the contrary. I don't need a copy of a 4473 and serial number of the gun. The Courts established the concept of "probable cause" for warrantless searches. Also "probable cause" can serve as a basis for a obtaining a search warrant.

    Could magazine subscriptions serve as "probable cause?" How about receiving "The American Rifleman" from the NRA? The magazine alone is clear evidence of membership of a strongly pro-gun organization.

    I don't need the 4473 and the serial number of the gun for a search warrant, only a willing Judge.
     
  12. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    Crap. No wonder they never make a profit.
     
  13. mordechaianiliewicz

    mordechaianiliewicz Member

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    The truth is, the biggest advantage we have is the shear # of firearms we own. Can the government get a list of one person's? Easily... A town, a city, a state, a nation? Not nearly as easily. There is a reason that Eric Holder said he wants guns to be demonized. Attack and eliminate the gun culture, and this become much easier.

    That being said, I'm not a fan of filling out a form electronic 4473. Why make it easy for them? I fear that paper may eventually be eliminated as an option though.
     
  14. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    No, in a way that the E-4473 doesn't "talk" to anything. You can run it just fine on a stand alone computer that is -not- networked in any way shape or form. All it is is a tool to assist in filling out the paperwork, making sure all the necessary info is filled in, and printing out a nice neat, CORRECT READABLE copy at the end.
    It's no more a database than a typewriter is.
    Personally -I- don't use it (yes, I'm an FFL) because I don't want to have to print out 12 PAGES of paper every time I do a 4473, when I can have the government supply the paper (at about 1/3 the thickness for filing) for free.
     
  15. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    ^ That's what I was thinking. You don't even have to have an internet connection if I understand correctly (which its possible that I don't). It's somewhere to go and fill out a form. You can print some basic legal forms from your state's courts.gov websites. While you do go online to do that, the forms are in no way networked in, other than to access them and print.

    Makes sense to me. Toner and paper add up.
     
  16. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    C'mon mgkdrgn! Don't bust up the conspiracy party with anything factual or grounded in reality !
    :D
     
  17. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    Just as it is easier to believe a big lie instead of a small one.
     
  18. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    So the people who believe they need guns to fight the inevitable totalitarian '1984' state are now too paranoid to buy said guns?
     
  19. SP2000

    SP2000 member

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    Yes. The black helicopter is over your house now. Secure your tin foil hat and head for your bomb shelter.
     
  20. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    Black helicopters are so 2012. The new ones are blue to covertly fly during the day.
     
  21. GoWolfpack

    GoWolfpack Member

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    I have suspicions about all 4473s, no matter the medium.
     
  22. Midwest

    Midwest Member

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    I remember watching "Red Dawn" and the Russian asking for the 4473's .....

    EDIT--- (Correction: it was the Cuban Colonel who was asking for the 4473's)


    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087985/quotes?item=qt0986821

    " KGB Major: Do you want to see me?

    Colonel Ernesto Bella: Yes... yes. Go to the sporting goods store. From the files obtain forms 4473. These will contain descriptions of weapons, and lists of private ownership. "




    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  23. Thermactor

    Thermactor member

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    BSA1, you've made your point very well and clear.

    I will recommend you for promotion to GS-8 or above for your Service.
     
  24. 12Pump

    12Pump Member

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    Probably. If you go to calguns (California gun owners forum), you'll see people panicking about further gun restrictions and advise about selling the prohibited guns in order to downgrade to something that will stay legal. Nothing about fighting to keep what they have.

    It reminds me of the idea of making illegal immigrants truly "illegal" and how that would make them "self-deport". I guess all you have to do is make certain fighting guns illegal, and those guns will self-deport themselves out of the state. Give up freedom in order to comply with the law that restricts your freedom. That's what the 2nd Amendment has been reduced to even in the eyes of most gun owners it would seem.
     
  25. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    One positive of this thread is that it allows easy identification of those who are fans of the Progressive philosophy on this board...... As I stated before, there are people who are members of this organization with a death wish and many of them are moderators.
     
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