alsaqr
Member
Yep, we need a rule requiring posters and mods to believe and support all myths regardless of their origin.
Nope, it was the Cuban colonel.
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Any suspicions about electronic 4473 forms?
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Yep, we need a rule requiring posters and mods to believe and support all myths regardless of their origin.
Nope, it was the Cuban colonel.
si'Yep, we need a rule requiring posters and mods to believe and support all myths regardless of their origin.
Nope, it was the Cuban colonel.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
alsaqr: Very nice non-sequitor answer. Just the type of attitude I expected. Don't spend any time thinking about the meaning or intent of the post just throw out a generalization that makes YOU feel good. I said nothing about conspiracies, myths, or anything else you referred to. I suppose that you would quickly put me in the same category if I posted that I do not believe in anthropogenic warming. Science, and politics, is about debate, not mass acquiesce, but it makes you feel much more powerful if you can give a flippant answer, doesn't it?
dogtown tom
Member
Sometimes foil isn't enough......you need the whole cookie sheet
Please explain.........by "fans of the Progressive philosophy" do you mean the tin foil hatters & conspiracy theorists or those that merely presented facts?
What "organization"? Is there a signup sheet? Do we have to pay dues? Do we get a special icon next to our name? Frequent flier miles?
justice06rr
Member
And they can see you with the NSA Satellite too! Better hide underground just to be safe
alsaqr
Member
Yep, there's that term "flippant" in response to a post disagreeing with a guy who labels all those who disagree with him as "progressives" with a "death wish" .
The danger is in creating a firearm registration not in getting a warrant for one individual.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
You guys are once again supporting my contentions. Thanks.
Anyone who believes that e4473 cannot quickly and easily be converted to a database is fooling themselves. Anyone who believes that the metadata off of calls/input to 4473 is not being intercepted and examined by the NSA is fooling themselves.
There are no more tin foil hats. Six months ago, one might have claimed the above two statements were preposterous. In fact, I would have claimed that folks were simply paranoid. But now we all know better. E4473s sitting collectively in FFLs' computers is just about one click away from becoming a registry. It would not surprise me at all to find that the NSA has a back door into all e4473 software such that they can access this data at will. They put back doors in some encryption software and intentionally weakened encryption standards. Why wouldn't they do the same for domestic firearms?
Anyone who says that "by law" the government can't do something is fooling themselves. The government can and is doing pretty much anything they want to, and you won't find out about it unless it gets leaked.
The one thing this Snowden leak has shown is that all of you shouting down the government conspiracy theorists are wrong, and have been for the better part of the time that this forum has existed. And I don't say that lightly... I was one of those people until about 6 months ago. I would bet that EVERY post to this forum goes through an NSA filter.... if not read by an actual person.
There are no more tin foil hats. Six months ago, one might have claimed the above two statements were preposterous. In fact, I would have claimed that folks were simply paranoid. But now we all know better. E4473s sitting collectively in FFLs' computers is just about one click away from becoming a registry. It would not surprise me at all to find that the NSA has a back door into all e4473 software such that they can access this data at will. They put back doors in some encryption software and intentionally weakened encryption standards. Why wouldn't they do the same for domestic firearms?
Anyone who says that "by law" the government can't do something is fooling themselves. The government can and is doing pretty much anything they want to, and you won't find out about it unless it gets leaked.
The one thing this Snowden leak has shown is that all of you shouting down the government conspiracy theorists are wrong, and have been for the better part of the time that this forum has existed. And I don't say that lightly... I was one of those people until about 6 months ago. I would bet that EVERY post to this forum goes through an NSA filter.... if not read by an actual person.
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mgkdrgn
Member
Please note where he was told to look for them .... AT the Local Gun Stores ... not any government agency
mgkdrgn
Member
again ... e4473 is a LOCAL application that connects to NOTHING. It does NOT do the background check ... all it does is print a piece of paper. The FFL still has to call in or re-key the necessary info (which is WAY less than what is on the 4473) to perform the NICS check.
Capybara
Member
███ ████ everything ████ ███ ███████ ██ is ████ █
██████████ ███ ███████ fine █████.
███████ ██ ████ trust █████ your █████ ███ government.
██████████ ███ ███████ fine █████.
███████ ██ ████ trust █████ your █████ ███ government.
I would point out that A - whatever computer the software is on at the local FFL almost certainly has an internet connection and B - It's much easier for an ATF agent to plug a thumb drive in for 30 seconds rather than look through/try to photocopy dozens of hard copy record books. I know of one local FFL that says, 'the ATF loves me, they come in looking for something and I just let them onto my computer and they get whatever they want and leave'. (He stores his records electronically)
LOL Capybara
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I am surprised. The last time this topic was debated was in October 2009. During that debate the moderators nailed the thread shut early with these words:
Sort of a DejaVue all over again. Imagine that if you will.
Here is the short but previous discussion.
Ron
Sort of a DejaVue all over again. Imagine that if you will.
Here is the short but previous discussion.
Ron
JustinJ
Member
Really? And why is it a important that those with a progressive philosophy be identified? Gona make it easier to round up and send to your re-education camp when your little overthrow the gov't fantasy comes true? What a joke.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
Not at all, just a window of understanding as to how and why people form their opinions. An old friend once told me that his father always told him that it was easier to understand other people's opinions if you knew from where they got their cornbread.
It seems some folks here are not interested in discussing various orthodoxies but would rather project a straw argument towards those who do not bow to the favored opinion.
I think that given the problematic operations of any government bureaucracy that it would be hard to make an argument with a straight face that the BATF is to be trusted to follow the intent of the law, whether they are folks of evil intent or a bunch of bumbling Barney Fife types. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand? Do you work for the government and are therefore unable to admit that either you or your brethern are incompetent, mismanaged, or misguided? I have been exposed to humanity long enough to formulate my own conclusions. 25% of the population care about being honest, working hard, and are competent in their chosen vocation. 25% could be competent and honest but they simply don't think it is necessary or fair to put forth maximum effort, and the other 50% are either too incompetent to understand their own lack of positive traits or have made a decision to get what they can for themselves and screw the rest of the world...... I have found that ratio to be pretty widespread no matter how you divide the population. Go ahead, tell me THAT is also a conspiracy!!!
It seems some folks here are not interested in discussing various orthodoxies but would rather project a straw argument towards those who do not bow to the favored opinion.
I think that given the problematic operations of any government bureaucracy that it would be hard to make an argument with a straight face that the BATF is to be trusted to follow the intent of the law, whether they are folks of evil intent or a bunch of bumbling Barney Fife types. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand? Do you work for the government and are therefore unable to admit that either you or your brethern are incompetent, mismanaged, or misguided? I have been exposed to humanity long enough to formulate my own conclusions. 25% of the population care about being honest, working hard, and are competent in their chosen vocation. 25% could be competent and honest but they simply don't think it is necessary or fair to put forth maximum effort, and the other 50% are either too incompetent to understand their own lack of positive traits or have made a decision to get what they can for themselves and screw the rest of the world...... I have found that ratio to be pretty widespread no matter how you divide the population. Go ahead, tell me THAT is also a conspiracy!!!
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leadcounsel
member
If I could do it over again, I'd stay OFF the grid as much as possible. Less forms. Less licenses.
I would encourage children to stay off the grid.
This is why FTF transactions are critical to preserving freedom.
I would encourage children to stay off the grid.
This is why FTF transactions are critical to preserving freedom.
Arkansas Paul
Member
That's like saying, "Anyone who believes that everything you do on MS Word cannot quickly and easily be converted to a database is fooling themselves." It is essentially the same thing. You don't even have to have the internet to do e4473s so how would the government convert them to a database? Can they remotely tap into any computer regardless of whether or not its connected to the WWW?
Steel Horse Rider
Member
I don't think you should fear the paper (or electronic) forms as I am sure that even invading Cuban's will not take the time to sort through endless files of forms to find gun owners when it is easier just to watch who is shooting at them...
The information the government agencies will keep and share is simply the fact that you have purchased firearms, just as I am sure they keep tabs on anyone who has been issued a CCP. I figure my name is already on enough lists that it really doesn't matter so all of you who wish to hang the "kook" label on me are barking up the wrong tree.
The information the government agencies will keep and share is simply the fact that you have purchased firearms, just as I am sure they keep tabs on anyone who has been issued a CCP. I figure my name is already on enough lists that it really doesn't matter so all of you who wish to hang the "kook" label on me are barking up the wrong tree.
22-rimfire
Member
I am sure that most of you realize that when you have constant internet connection, updates and so forth can be downloaded at will without the consent of the computer owner. You don't have to be "logged in". The same could be true of materials being retrieved from your computer via the internet. This would normally be termed a "computer virus". But would government retrievial of information be considered a "virus"? Most businesses will have their computers connected to the internet.
So, those of you that have your lists of firearms with serial numbers or other valuables on your computer, this information can be retrieved also with the proper intrusive software.
I doubt retrieval of the completed E4473 forms is happening, just like I doubt that the government is getting inside people's PC's for the purpose of retrieving gun ownership information.
So, those of you that have your lists of firearms with serial numbers or other valuables on your computer, this information can be retrieved also with the proper intrusive software.
I doubt retrieval of the completed E4473 forms is happening, just like I doubt that the government is getting inside people's PC's for the purpose of retrieving gun ownership information.
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Arkansas Paul
Member
For someone who has more knowledge than me of the situation, are the e4473 forms even saved to the computer's hard drive or are they just printed out and closed out when that particular form is completed?
I tried that at first and found that I had to "settle" for what firearms were being sold privately. It sure limited what I could get, even when I placed "want ads" in the paper looking for something in particular. I ended up going to a shop after all. It seems that the "good stuff" are the guns that people don't want to part with after they buy them.
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