Anyone CCW a Hi Power or other full-sized auto?

[LanEvo`]

Hi, guys.

I'm moving to a country where there's a very good chance (approaching 100%) that I'll be able to legally carry within a few months time.

However, there is a very serious limitation in terms of firearms selection. Where I'm going, I will have easy access to certain full-sized autoloaders, especially ones manufactured in Europe.

From what I've seen the P35 Hi Power, CZ-75B, and Glock G17 are the most readily available (though quite expensive!). 1911 pattern firearms, which I'm most familiar with, are basically impossible to get. Besides that, I'm basically limited to 9mm ammo. What's worse, I'm limited to ball ammo since hollowpoints are illegal.

With that in mind, does anyone have experience carrying a full-sized service pistol? I'm leaning towards a Belgian-made Hi Power just because it's the closest thing to a 1911.

I've got a fairly slim build (6'1" and 180 lbs.) and I'll be in business suits or "business casual (i.e., slacks and a dress shirt) most of the time. Just wondering if CCW is even realistic in this scenario! Any P35 aficionados in the house? I'd appreciate any tips or advice you guys can share.

TIA

 

[Whirlwind06]

Get a good IWB holster and a good belt.
I have carried the HP and I carry a Ruger P89 right now.
Not hard if you are willing too dress for it.

 

[LanEvo`]

I've never handled a Hi Power before. How much thicker is the grip compared to a 1911?

Not hard if you are willing too dress for it.

That's part of my question. I'm limited in terms of my wardrobe. As I've described above, I'll be in a professional environment...so photographer's vests, 3" wide gunbelts, etc. wouldn't work

Emre

 

[Prince Yamato]

I'd go for the Glock. It's the least obtrusive and won't show through your clothes. In addition, get an all-black holster. With both items all black, if you are ever accidentally "show" someone may just mistake it for a cellphone or something instead. If you are ALWAYS wearing a sport coat, a small of the back holster may work.

 

[Vitamin G]

While I think the glock is a fine weapon, I'd never own JUST a glock.

I have no experince with the CZ, but if thats the same as the EAA witness, its a great shooter.

Personally i'd pick the BHP. I feel that enjoying the time you spend plinking, is just as important as defense. When I shoot my glocks, I feel like i'm practicing. When i shoot the BHP, I feel like I'm enjoying myself (and getting the benefit of practice at the same time).


Edited to add : Though I've never held one, the "grip reduced" glocks may be just what you're looking for. A glock firearm with a 1911 angled grip. I may just send one of my glocks away, come to think of it.

 

[LanEvo`]

I'd go for the Glock. It's the least obtrusive and won't show through your clothes.

Is that right? Glocks always struck me as rather blocky, so I assumed they'd be pretty hard to conceal. In my experience, the width of a handgun is probably the single biggest factor in concealability (one of the reasons I like 1911's fitted with slim grip panels).

Also, as I mentioned in the original post, the only Glock I would be able to get my hands on would be a full-sized G17. My impression is that it would be tricky to conceal under normal business attire.

Emre

 

[RyanM]

I've heard Hi-Powers have real durability problems. Even in 9mm, the lifespan of the gun is about 35,000 rounds, compared to 200,000+ for a Glock or 1911.

See if you can have a 9mm 1911 imported, maybe?

 

[Vitamin G]

I've heard glocks are made of ceramic and don't show up on metal detectors...

 

[mec]

I carry a fully sized 1911 in a Milt spars VMII with the optional clips that allow you to tuck a shirt in over it. It works well as long as the shirt isn't skin tight. It is a bit tedious getting dressed but once the shirt is tucked in, it is not hard to wear the rig all day. These things are made to order and take about 3 months to delivery.

Shown with loops rather than tuckable clips

 

[RyanM]

Uh huh. Except the 35,000 figure is from an actual, reliable source, who knows what he's talking about, and works closely with several law enforcement agencies, who've gone through a lot of handguns. Doctor Roberts, on tacforums.

In 9mm:

Beretta 92 - 20,000 rounds
BHP - 35,000
SIG - 60,000
Glock - 150,000-200,000+

 

[LanEvo`]

See if you can have a 9mm 1911 imported, maybe?

I wish!

The country I'm moving to has laws that strictly control firearms importation. I'm limited to a small handful of legal firearms that I can obtain through normal channels. Of the available handguns, I have a choice between full-sized 9mm duty guns or mouseguns chambered for .22 LR, .32 ACP, and the occasional .380 auto.

As far as the duty guns go, the FN Hi Power, Glock G17, and CZ-75B (plus a Turkish-made clone) are pretty much all I will be able to get my hands on.

 

[Vitamin G]

Wasn't disputing the numbers, I was implying that it would be more helpful to the OP to have cited data, rather than "Someone told me once..."

Sorry for the confusion.


LanEvo: if you're a big fan of the feel of the 1911 style feel, look at the instructions brownell's has for altering the grip angle. Grip angle and lack of real safety are my only 2 glock complaints, and the safety is only superficially minor.

 

[LanEvo`]

Uh huh. Except the 35,000 figure is from an actual, reliable source, who knows what he's talking about, and works closely with several law enforcement agencies, who've gone through a lot of handguns.

Realistically, I will be getting nowhere near 35K rounds. Civilians are limited in how much ammo they can procure in a given year...and it's an absurdly low number (on the order of 100 rounds of ammo per year).

Of course, you can buy more ammo through *ahem* "alternate channels" at an exorbitant price. But I'm not going to be burning through boxes and boxes of ammo each week the way I used to do here in the US.

 

[Autolycus]

So why are you so afraid to list the country you are moving to?

 

[LanEvo`]

Sorry. It's Turkey.

It's not that I'm afraid. I just didn't think anyone would care! And I certainly didn't think that anyone here would know anything about Turkish firearms laws: they've been hard enough for me to track down and understand even though I speak the language!

Incidentally, one problem with Glocks is that they're quite expensive in Turkey. A used G17 will run arond $3500 USD. A new one is closer to 5 grand. And my understanding is that the local gunsmiths have very limited experience with Glocks. In contrast, they have been producing CZ clones for years. There are plenty of 'smiths who can work on Browning designs.

I'd hate to get stuck with a high-priced paperweight if I invested in a Glock and something were to go wrong.

 

[macadore]

The CZ RAMI is similar to a 1911 and a little smaller.

http://czusa.net/product_detail.php?id=48

 

[8830]

The Hi-Power or the CZ should work fine with your size and suit and they are both very reliable pistols and the CZ can also go single action. Just find a good holster for the one you choose. I've had good luck with Galco Fletch and Desantis Speed Scabbard or Thumb break Scabbard. IWB holsters never worked well for me so I've always stuck with OWB or shoulder holsters. If you use a shoulder holster just make sure your suit coat is tailored around it to help prevent "printing".

 

[hank327]

The Hi-Power will conceal just fine. The slide is much narrower than the slide of a 1911 and the grip is only a little thicker. I've carried my Hi-Power concealed with no problem with an IWB holster and a 1 1/4" leather gunbelt that I also use as a dress belt. As for durability goes, the Hi-Power is durable enough. The CZ is also an excellent choice though it is a little larger than the Hi-Power.

 

[dogtown tom]

Prince Yamato: I'd go for the Glock. It's the least obtrusive and won't show through your clothes...

WIDTH
The only place where a Hi Power could possibly be wider & fatter than a Glock is the grip. The standard factory wood slabs on BHP's make it all of 35mm wide, whereas factory nylon contour grips and almost all aftermarket wood grips don't exceed 30-32mm. The Glock grip will never be less than 33mm. The Glock grip comes in one basic choice, BHP grips can be had thick or thin, with or without checkering, rubber, aluminum, wood, nylon and with or without thumbrest.

Where the HP wins hands down is the width of the slide & frame. There is simply no comparison on "slimness" between a Hi Power and a Glock. The fat, blocky slide gives Glock it's nickname.

Carry IWB and you'll immediately notice the advantage of a Hi Power.

LENGTH
HP is longer by about an 1/2". If carried IWB this is inconsequential.

HEIGHT
Hi Power is shorter by about 1/2".

*************************************

It is quite likely that the Hi Powers you will see in Turkey will be copies made by FEG. (The "original" Hi Power is made by Fabrique Nationale of Belgium. John Browning did some of the early design work hence, "Browning's Hi Power".) The FEG Hi Power copy seems to be pretty durable. Be aware that FEG produces several "variations" of the Hi Power- some are double action, some bear no resemblance to the FN Hi Power, and some do not accept real HP magazines. I believe the HP clone is called the FEG PJK9.

 

[joffe]

Slightly off-topic, but would you mind sharing the Turkish gun laws? It's always interesting to hear about slightly less anti-gun countries in Europe, the laws are rarely laid out in a practical, easy-to-find format.

 

[LanEvo`]

The standard factory wood slabs on BHP's make it all of 35mm wide, whereas factory nylon contour grips and almost all aftermarket wood grips don't exceed 30-32mm. The Glock grip will never be less than 33mm. The Glock grip comes in one basic choice, BHP grips can be had thick or thin, with or without checkering, rubber, aluminum, wood, nylon and with or without thumbrest.

Where the HP wins hands down is the width of the slide & frame. There is simply no comparison on "slimness" between a Hi Power and a Glock.

That is very helpful. Thanks! Based on what you and hank327 wrote, it sounds like a P35 with slimmer grips would be about as easy to conceal as a 1911 Government Model with regular grips. Is that so?

HEIGHT
Hi Power is shorter by about 1/2".

That also helps. Slide thickness, grip thickness, and grip length seem to be pretty critical when it comes to IWB carry.

It is quite likely that the Hi Powers you will see in Turkey will be copies made by FEG.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I "think" I can get genuine FN Hi Powers there. But you may be right. BTW, is there a downside to the Hungarian gun? I imagine the price is probably lower. But I'd definitely be willing to spend more for the FN if I can get it.

Emre

 

[LanEvo`]

Slightly off-topic, but would you mind sharing the Turkish gun laws? It's always interesting to hear about slightly less anti-gun countries in Europe, the laws are rarely laid out in a practical, easy-to-find format.

I'm still learning myself. From what I've learned so far, there are two types of licenses: a license to "own" and a license to "carry." The license to own is given to pretty much any citizen who asks for it. It allows you to keep any firearm (including handguns and mag-fed semi-auto rifles) in your home or place of business. It also allows you to purchase ammo, up to a maximum limit per year.

The license to carry is tough to get. There are certain professions that are considered "high risk" (jewelers, bankers, judges, etc.) and they can get carry permits fairly easily (that's how I'm eligible). Like many US states, you need to show some sort of reason beyond "self defense," which means that many law-abiding citizens cannot carry legally. As you'd expect, that means an awful lot of people carry illegally. From what I understand, getting caught carrying without a license isn't exactly the end of the world...though I personally would never test this theory!

There are some quirks. Almost all of these quirks have to do with protecting the Turkish arms industry from foreign competition. First, you are limited in terms of ammo. You can only buy ammo produced within the country. That means finding stuff like .357 mag and .45 acp is practically impossible (let alone anything exotic). Hollowpoints appear to be illegal (but I haven't been able to confirm this yet). The strange thing is that civilians are limited to something like 100 rounds of ammo per year. As I alluded to earlier, there seem to be ways to access more if you are motivated to do so.

As for firearms, again, the government protects the Turkish arms industry. There are Turkish CZ-75 clones made by Sarsilmaz (the same models Armalite is now importing into the US as the "AR-24"), which are very widely available. Kirikkale produces some H&K rifles under license (like the MP5 and H&K 33) as well as a handgun that appears to be based on the Walther PPK. Lots and lots of companies produce shotguns and sporting rifles.

Imported handguns can be found, but prices are ridiculous and most are used. A modern H&K or Glock will run over $3000 in most cases. A lot of this seems to be driven by the "Hollywood appeal" of owning a plastic gun. S&W revolvers change hands at very high prices, and .38 spl and .357 mag ammo is scarce. But people snap them up when they hit the market. European Hi Powers and CZ-75B's turn up fairly regularly and are priced well below what a plastic fantastic would go for.

 

[Maximum1]

It sounds like you're saying one can't carry concealed a sub-compact semi-auto? How strange...They'll allow you to carry but don't want it too concealable?

 

[LanEvo`]

It sounds like you're saying one can't carry concealed a sub-compact semi-auto? How strange...They'll allow you to carry but don't want it too concealable?

No, not at all. Part of the problem is that I'm trying to translate Turkish words into English...and maybe doing a poor job of it! If you get a "license to carry a weapon" (Silah Taşıma Ruhsatı), then it must be concealed. The laws are similar to "CCW" laws in the USA.

It's tough to get a carry license, so many people choose to carry illegally. As always, some citizens will choose to ignore illogical laws that restrict their fundamental civil liberties.

As for the sub-compact autos, they are available...but not in "proper" calibers. If you want a 9mm (the only reasonable S.D. caliber you can easily get your hands on), then you're pretty much forced to carry a full-sized duty gun. The main reason for this appears to be the fact that the Turkish handgun industry primarily deals with military and police contracts, so duty guns are their bread and butter. Since the Turkish government tends to protect Turkish industry by giving them monopolies, that means you don't have easy access to imports, which are generally better suited for concealed carry than handguns manufactured in the home market.

Overall, carry licenses are tough to get. I imagine the market for self-defense oriented pistols is rather small compared to the military/police markets. That's probably why the Turkish small arms manufacturers don't bother spending time and money on compact autos.

 

[dogtown tom]

Another fine handgun to consider is the Beretta/Stoeger Cougar. Originally produced in Italy, Beretta discontinued them under their name and now has them manufactured by Stoeger (who is owned by Beretta) in Turkey.