Anyone here believe a .380 is inadequate?

[jar]

So I own and shoot handguns ranging from 44 mag to 38S&W and have had them all for at least several decades and been shooting for over a half century. I have both revolvers and pistols in 45acp and revolvers in 38Special as well as 357 and 44 magnum. I have a herd of 9mm bottom feeders and even one SA in 9mm.

But my most often carry handguns are 38S&W, 38 Special, .380, 9mmMak and then 9mm. The reasons are all pretty simple. I am super comfortable with the revolver format; shoot them moderately accurately, find revolvers really reliable and I already own them. I can say the same about my Sig 230 and East German Makarov.

Even when I carry my larger Smith K & N frames or the Dan Wesson 15 they will most often be loaded with 38Special rather than 357. The Smith 1917s and Colt New Service will be 45acp with a couple spare filled moon clips.

Personally I rely on awareness and avoidance as my primary safety tools; the handgun is there to not get used if at all possible.

 

[Labguy47]

Just another tool in tool box gentlemen.

This was my thought exactly, Guns are tools and you use what you have. It wouldn't be my first choice but it is a far cry from pointy stick.

 

[bikerdoc]

Good post Jar.

Awareness and avoidance, is first, and foremost the best tool in the tool box, but just in case Mr 1911 is comforting.

 

[mdauben]

I don’t know anyone who would volunteer to be shot by a .380acp!

I would not volunteer to be shot with a Red Rider BB gun, either, but I would not suggest it is a good choice for self defence.

 

[bassjam]

Handguns aren't mankillers. If you want to kill something, use a rifle.

Of course that's not practical for daily use so we carry handguns as a last line of defense in case we need to make someone stop what they're doing. In the grand scheme of things the real world differences between a .380 ACP and 9mm are pretty small. I don't believe that after the so-so performance of the .45 ACP, 40S&W, 9mm, .357 mag and .38 sp in self defense that suddenly the incapacitation properties drop to "worthless" with the .380 ACP. Like bikerdoc said it's just another tool in the toolbox, and each of us has to decide for ourselves if the .380 has a place in our toolboxes. All handguns are a compromise and for me my LCP offers a pretty good size compromise when my MK9 is just a tad too large.

 

[Browning]

I would likewise continue to not carry anything smaller than 9mm Luger/Parabellum with decent bullets and preferably +P. The .380s are just going too slow and cannot throw heavy enough bullets. There's some solid testing by reputable folks that put the .380 below their thresholds for an adequate defensive cartridge no matter how loaded.

Yes, we've likely read some of the same studies.

I've also run on a fair number of shootings and while someone reading this can clearly file it under the heading of anecdotal evidence it seems like those shot with cartridges .380 and below didn't have the fight taken out of them unless shot in the head. Some of that is a bullet placement issue (since I've also run on murders committed with a .380), but those were my general impressions.

My small carry is a Kahr P9. It's small enough for almost any situation. I have put it in the waistband of drawstring running shorts, then done yard work. I only very rarely wish for anything smaller. I am not carrying it now, because I am in Poland and no one will let me carry my gun on a plane and into random other counties, or I'd have just done a presentation on stage to a room full of people, on video, with a gun invisibly on my body.

That's my second thought as well ... that before the current crop of micro and subcompact 9's and .40's there was a clear need for some kind of ultra-concealable pocket pistol and .380 ACP was pretty much the largest cartridge that most pistol manufacturers had available (I'm ignoring the 9mm Mak simply because for part of that time period it wasn't available in the US). That's no longer the case.

Some might take the discussion of this cartridge as a personal attack for some reason. That's not the case either, at least not with my replies. It's a discussion board, that's what it's here for. :Shrug

Just to clear the air I think for some uses (back up guns, chambered in slightly larger pistols like the Browning BDA or Beretta 85 for people with reduced hand strength, ultra-concealable pistols where it's better to have a tiny pistol than no pistol at all etc etc) the .380 is a decent choice just so long as you train with it and keep its limitations in mind. I'm just saying that I'd prefer to pack at least a 9mm if that's an option.

 

[fxvr5]

Handguns aren't mankillers.

Yes they are.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I don’t know anyone who would volunteer to be shot by a .380acp!

The question is not, "Would you volunteer to be shot by a .380 acp?" but rather "Would volunteer to be armed with a .380 acp and be attacked by a 6 foot 8 maniac hopped up on meth?"

 

[Skgreen]

This subject is very similar to the 9mm vs. 45 debate.

Doubtful that any minds will be changed or anything more substantial than 'one size does not fit all' will ever be agreed upon.

One may have to accept the fact that sometimes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, there are no wrong answers,,,,

 

[98Redline]

This was my thought exactly, Guns are tools and you use what you have. It wouldn't be my first choice but it is a far cry from pointy stick.

This right here.

Generally I carry the largest caliber that I can CCW.
Sometimes that is a 44 Mag, other times it is a 9mm, and others it is a 380.

I don't have one size ratchet handle in my toolbox either. Sometimes I need my 1/2" drive, other times 3/8", and for special cases, sometimes that short little 1/4" drive is just what is needed.

 

[Skgreen]

a 6 foot 8 maniac hopped up on meth?"

They must grow em pretty big deep in the Ozarks!
Much safer here in Houston!

 

[bassjam]

Yes they are.

In that respect, so are .22's, hammers, and cars. My point is if you knew today was the day you needed to kill someone, you wouldn't carry a handgun with you because the aren't nearly as effective as long guns. When hunters use a handgun it isn't because they're more deadly, it's because they like the added challenge of using a less effective tool.

 

[fxvr5]

..

 

[KYregular]

I wouldnt volunteer to be shot by it, but never understood why anyone would buy a .380 over a 9mm. Basically no difference in recoil, overall 9mm is more accurate, more readily available, has more stopping power, and generally is less money to shoot and train with, and from my experience there is no comparison between a 9mm and .380 when it comes to reliability and firearm function. I had a buddy buy a .380 because it was 75 bucks cheaper than the 9mm comparabl3, and has spent over 200 bucks in ammo trying to find something it would shoot and cycle, and still hasn't. 9mm hands down, but to each his own.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I wouldnt volunteer to be shot by it, but never understood why anyone would buy a .380 over a 9mm. Basically no difference in recoil, overall 9mm is more accurate, more readily available, has more stopping power, and generally is less money to shoot and train with, and from my experience there is no comparison between a 9mm and .380 when it comes to reliability and firearm function. I had a buddy buy a .380 because it was 75 bucks cheaper than the 9mm comparabl3, and has spent over 200 bucks in ammo trying to find something it would shoot and cycle, and still hasn't. 9mm hands down, but to each his own.

No difference in recoil? Of course there is.I have a 380 that is is a pussy cat when it comes to recoil. Unless of course you are talking about a 9mm weighing twice as much or more. Obviously you have not shot many 380's. 9 mm more accurate? Sorry wrong again. That depends on the shooter and of course the range. 9 mm is more readily available? Give me a break, I can buy 380 at any gun store in town. Sitting on a few thousand rounds of mixed 380 as I speak. Sorry but hands down the 380 is much easier to carry each and every single day period. And guess what. Mine are reliable as hell. More stopping power? I am willing to bet my life that anyone that gets in front of my little Pico and gets 7 rounds to the chest and face is going to stop. I have been shooting pocket guns for 10 years and anyone who thinks or believes that the 380 is under powered at close range would be making a very BIG Mistake.
By the way, I own a number of 380's and small 9mm. I have one of the smallest micro 9mm's on the market and yes it is easy to carry but NOT compared to the Pico. And when a simple task like going to the mailbox, walking the dog, going to a 7/11 or anywhere I go 7 days a week, the Pico is right there. Why??? because it is nothing to keep with me all the time.

The two nine MM's are lovely guns, easy to carry, but weigh almost twice as much. Weight matters.

Fully loaded Pico with 7 rds.




And I am very fond of my small Micro 9mm and the Ruger LCR9mm, and while the carry great, they do not carry as well as the more convenient 380. In many cases the Pico will simply tag along with them.

 

[redneck2]

don’t know anyone who would volunteer to be shot by a .380acp!

That’s got nothing to do with anything. I don’t want to get hit with a B.B. gun, but doesn’t mean it’s good for self defense

 

[CDW4ME]

"Wouldn't want to get shot / wouldn't volunteer to get shot" ... is not indicative of incapacitation potential; I wouldn't want to or volunteer to have a cup of urine thrown on me nor would it be quickly incapacitating.
380 is "better than nothing" but that is not a measure of performance I prefer to bet my life on.
If the best one can do (like because of work attire) is a pocket gun, a Kahr CM/PM 9mm is easily pocketable (ditch the jeans/jorts) and something like TicTacs / small hand sanitizer helps break outline of holstered pistol in pocket.
Regardless of location, time, anticipated threat and just about any other rationalization for carrying less - most would prefer more, not less if they had to defend them self. 9mm and 40 have better potential, same shot placement.
Who wants to settle for the least "better than nothing" when every second counts (not me).
380 has less than 1/2 the power of the 9mm loads - I'm not willing to settle for that.
All are 5 shot averages over my chrono:
LCP 380
Gold Dot 90 gr. 841 fps - 141# KE
Hydra-Shok 90 gr. 845 fps - 143# KE
Kahr PM9
Federal HST 124 +P @ 1,120 fps / 345# KE
Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,139 fps / 357# KE
Kahr PM40
180 gr. Speer Gold Dot @ 950 fps / 361# KE
155 gr. Federal Bonded @ 1,086 fps / 406# KE

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

We all have to make our own decisions.

I choose not to carry a 380, but I am not going to knock someone who does.

 

[Ks5shooter]

With modern bullet choices it will do just fine IMHO

 

[Skgreen]

Decades ago, my then Wife-to-be chose a 380 for HD.
A simple PPK clone. (FEG Mark 2) Could've chosen whatever they had, but the FEG was a better fit in several different ways.
Still have that same FEG today, and it's always fed/fired/functioned flawlessly.

As always, YMMV.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

That’s got nothing to do with anything. I don’t want to get hit with a B.B. gun, but doesn’t mean it’s good for self defense

I believe the poster was making a tongue in cheek statement. Did you actually think he was comparing a BB gun to a 380?

 

[Wichaka]

Shot placement will always be paramount, but with smaller calibers it becomes even more important...think .22 vs .45
Another thing that usually gets lost in the conversation is penetration as well as bullet expansion, which equals crush cavity or damage to tissue and organs.

Unless the shot(s) go in the snot locker, they need to be kept high and tight. High, above nipple line. This is where all the vitals are...heart, major arteries, and lungs. Tight, no more that 8" wide, based on 4" either side of the base line, which is center of the sternum.

Other than a head shot, folks can live around 2 minutes with the heart shot out...and a lot of damage can be inflicted in that amount of time...not the outcome we're looking for. The larger the bullet, the more damage can be inflicted, which means they bleed out faster, which lowers the blood pressure until they faint. Which is the outcome we want, for them to faint really, really fast.

From my first hand experience, I've not seen consistent reliable performance from .380's. Most anything will end the book with a head shot, but other than that, my opinion is carry nothing less than a 9mm.

I know some are stuck on 45's, myself included, but have seen garbage performance from 45 ACP with Winchester SXT, Federal Hydra-Shok and Hornady Critical Defense. The performance is erratic at best. I would take a 9mm with either a Federal HST 124-147gr, or Winchester Ranger-T, or Remington Golden Saber (Non-Bonded), that has consistent reliable expansion and penetration, which equals greater damage if not hit in the vitals or head. Why not go with something that will give you every little bit of an edge?

Again, if the shots don't go where they need to go...and we don't live in a perfect world, so that's bound to happen, sometimes caliber means little...depending on the bullet used. But 380 across the board is a bit feeble.

That's my opinion from first hand experience assisting with pulling bullets out of bodies...here's some notes from Dr. Gary Roberts;

Handguns chambered in .380 Auto are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 Auto JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 Auto FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 Auto JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 Auto or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 Auto and smaller caliber weapons is really not acceptable for law enforcement use and most savvy agencies prohibit them. While both the .380 Auto and .38 Sp can obviously be lethal; the .38 Sp is more likely to incapacitate an attacker when used in a BUG role.

 

[cougar1717]

I don’t know anyone who would volunteer to be shot by a .380acp!

In the same vein of others, I would not want to be shot with a BB gun, bullet of any caliber, or hit with a taser, bean bag projectile, rubber bullet, or OC spray. I also do not want to be hit with a hammer, stabbed with an edged weapon, trip or fall from height, or be in a car accident. The desire to not experience something harmful does not constitute adequacy.

I don't see how a .002" difference in diameter makes any significance in comparing 380 to 38/357.

The diameter difference does not mean much when comparing calibers. What means a lot, especially in terminal ballistics, is the exit velocity, bullet weight, and bullet construction.

While I have absolutely zero skin in the game when it comes to Lucky Gunner, I do enjoy their data.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

Look at it. They used a G42. You can clearly see that 380acp rides a razor's edge when it comes to experiencing bullet expansion AND having 12" to 18" of penetration. It is more likely that a .380 auto will experience: 1) Bullet expansion and less than 12" of penetration or 2) Very little or no expansion and penetration past 18". Even the majority of those that made the 12-18" window did not expand well. Of all the loads they tested, I would personally only carry one or two of them.

Compare the 380acp data to the 9mm Luger data, where the VAST majority are in the 12-18" window, with expansion. It is amazing what an extra 100-150fps and 25-35gr of bullet weight can do. It is hard to go far wrong in choosing one of those 9mm ammos for carry.

I will not argue extremes, like a P3AT vs a G17/19 or Buffalo bore vs some other "typical" SD ammo. Go toe to toe on similar single stack subcompacts with capacities of 6-7 with similar ammo offerings. No free lunches in physics when a person takes BB velocity data and attests equal proficiency with subcompacts.

Now, from the data, many 380 SD ammos can get expansion with penetration in the 10" range. So the question would be, do I need the extra 2" of penetration? Or said another way, if my sternum to spine is only 8" thick, I'm 2" to the good, right? The problem is that there is no excess. It doesn't account for non-ideal situations. Think about when the media shows the coroner's autopsy reports on high profile shootings. Some officers have fired many more than 6 rounds at a person that was doing them harm. Many of them were not ideal shots. Is any SD situation ideal with the exception of those devised on forums? Perish the thought of a situation in which after someone has shot at you that they have turned and are now somewhat perpendicular to you or they have found concealment or cover. The distance now isn't sternum to spine, but through an object like a merchandise rack, an arm, and a pectoral muscle to get to a CNS location. And who says that bullet is going to travel in a straight line path?

You see where I'm going here. I won't say that 380 is inadequate or should not be carried, BUT - IMHO opinion, too many "ideals" need to line up for it to be consistently effective.

I've hope you've had as much fun reading this as I have had writing. The fact of the matter is that 380's are popular. They are easy to carry and many tuck away in a pocket. They are lightweight and usually lighter recoiling. It's just that there is no free lunch. Concealability, Capacity, and Cartridge all have to balance out when it comes to choosing a CCW.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

"Wouldn't want to get shot / wouldn't volunteer to get shot" ... is not indicative of incapacitation potential; I wouldn't want to or volunteer to have a cup of urine thrown on me nor would it be quickly incapacitating.
380 is "better than nothing" but that is not a measure of performance I prefer to bet my life on.
If the best one can do (like because of work attire) is a pocket gun, a Kahr CM/PM 9mm is easily pocketable (ditch the jeans/jorts) and something like TicTacs / small hand sanitizer helps break outline of holstered pistol in pocket.
Regardless of location, time, anticipated threat and just about any other rationalization for carrying less - most would prefer more, not less if they had to defend them self. 9mm and 40 have better potential, same shot placement.
Who wants to settle for the least "better than nothing" when every second counts (not me).
380 has less than 1/2 the power of the 9mm loads - I'm not willing to settle for that.
All are 5 shot averages over my chrono:
LCP 380
Gold Dot 90 gr. 841 fps - 141# KE
Hydra-Shok 90 gr. 845 fps - 143# KE
Kahr PM9
Federal HST 124 +P @ 1,120 fps / 345# KE
Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,139 fps / 357# KE
Kahr PM40
180 gr. Speer Gold Dot @ 950 fps / 361# KE
155 gr. Federal Bonded @ 1,086 fps / 406# KE

Why are you settling for a 40 cal? Maybe you should reconsider and start carrying a 12 ga. What to you think of the Shock Wave? Personally I will stick with the 380 for 7 day a week and 9mm. Again, shot placement has nothing to do with this. That is up to the individual. If you cannot shoot well with the gun you carry, then yes, find one you can. I can do very well with quick shot placement with a 380. And I do not want to start loading up my jeans, shorts etc with Tic Tacs and hand sanitizer to break up the out line. Although I did get a laugh out of the thought. How many Tic Tacs does one need?
I guess around 25 ounces of them. How many Tic Tacs is that? About 10 boxes? No thanks.

 

[bassjam]

If the best one can do (like because of work attire) is a pocket gun, a Kahr CM/PM 9mm is easily pocketable (ditch the jeans/jorts) and something like TicTacs / small hand sanitizer helps break outline of holstered pistol in pocket.

I see people recommend single stack 9's as pocket guns, but they sure don't work for me. I have both a P938 and a MK9. While both will physically fill in my pockets, I've found it's harder to remove them from my pockets once my fists are wrapped around the grips in every pair of jeans and most shorts I own. I'm sure it'd be even worse if my heart rate was elevated, my palms sweaty, and my motor skills impaired in a life or death situation. But my more streamlined 442 j-frame or tiny LCP work great for pocket carry.