Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by ColeK, Sep 12, 2018.
Interesting 'study', .32 ACP and .380 ACP beating out .357 Mag and .44 Mag in one shot stops.
If we are going to assume good shot placement, then every benefit of the .380 is eclipsed by the .32 ACP. If you believe that the .32 ACP is ballistically insufficient, then you are very close to making the argument that the .380 is ballistically insufficient.
Actually I think the key word is ".Incapacitation". And it is a very interesting study. I have believed the same for years and have seen similar studies. It did mention that the 32.cal and 25.cal were not in the same category as the 380 and above and best to avoid them. I am wondering if the New Lehigh or Underwood "Capacitor" cartridge would change the dynamics of the 32?
"If we are going to assume good shot placement, then every benefit of the .380 is eclipsed by the .32 ACP. If you believe that the .32 ACP is ballistically insufficient, then you are very close to making the argument that the .380 is ballistically insufficient."
Shot placement with a 380 and be excellent for a trained shooter even with the smallest of them.
Why'd you post this then?
What does it say right there at the top in red right next to the stop sign with the silhouette inside? I believe that it says "1-Shot Stops". I was merely quoting what you posted.
What similar studies?
Seems like the 'study' had a caveat per category (for 9mm from including FMJ, one for revolvers vs semi-autos, one for .25, .32 and .44 Mag and so on).
He also never said anything about separating .25 and .32 ACP from 380 ACP. What he said was ...
Then further down he stated
He doesn't say that everyone should carry .380's.
People said the same thing about Glasers.
Has there been any actual shootings using the Lehigh? I'm unaware of any.
well, theres physical comfort, and then theres mental comfort.
I carry my hipower all day, and sometimes its not the most physically comfortable thing. but it conceals well enough, and I have the peace of mind that theres 13+1 of 9mm (plus another 13 stashed on my weak side) in a chassis im very comfortable with. It may be just a nine, and only hold 14, but Im very comfortable with it, even if sometimes its a pain in the bu....hip.
I also have a Sig 238 that im pretty well versed with.... I do drills with it semi-regularly, I roll my own for it with Bullseye and XTPs (I trust MY quality control), it has the mode of operation I like, and im confident that I could wield it in a serious way. its so physically comfortable that ive almost forgotten that it was there!
but in my mind, im less comfortable to know that I only have 6+1 of a relatively anemic cartridge (with another 6 weak side, and yet another 6 in that little coin pocket in most jeans).
the 380 will probably work fine, in the unlikely event that I need to use it for real. but, then again.....what about barrier penetration? multiple assailants? drugged out wackos? nutjobs mowing people down with an auto?
we cant be prepared for every scenario.
strike a balance between physical comfort and mental comfort, find a chassis that your eyes and hand are most comfortable with, and become fluent with it.
id rather face a dolt with a 45 than a fluent user of a 380 (or 22LR for that matter)
All I will say on this subject is that I would rather have a .380 in my hand if I were attacked than my .44 mag in the gunsafe at home...Nobody..likes to be shot..with ANYTHING!
I agree, there is a balance to both comfort and physical and mental. And for myself that is were the 380. shines. And of course we cannot prepare for all scenarios, are we would all be carrying around shotguns and AR's. You pick and choose what you think is realistic in terms of a common attack, road rage, going to your car at night, walking the dog, etc. A 380 is a very Practical Carry. And your Sig is one very nice 380. I am a Pico Fanboy, but someday will have a Sig, Colt, Kimber. Get a smooth shooting firearm like the Pico, Kahr, Sig, Kimber, or even the larger 380's Bersa, Ruger LC380 etc. and you can use a 22.cal for a trainer. Especially point and shoot. I love the Phoenix HPA. Love the feel and since it is a 1911 style like the Sig, would be excellent cost effective way to train.
As I have posted before, we cannot prepare for every attack. However we all choose what we think we should train the most with on our carry guns. And Training, quickness and accuracy will supersede all firearms regardless of caliber. I train for these scenarios. And of course the Main Goal is to be better than average.
By the way, Here is a Phoenix 22.
Ballisticly the .380 is very close to a Cap and Ball 36 Navy or similar revolver. Both have served many well.
Why is it that people who rationalize their choice of buying and then carrying some of the smallest pistols available always go to the extreme of the equation and use examples of carrying AR's, shotguns, .44 Mags or have to talk about battles like Fallujah?
You don't need to go to the extreme. A few hundred years ago in order to be considered 'well armed' our forefathers had to carry two flintlocks as well as a large blade. Nowadays someone carrying an 7 to 12 rd 9mm or .40 S&W pistol, a reload and a folding knife beat that all to hell.
Carrying two flintlocks and a sword or dirk isn't exactly comfortable either.
Might want to check this out.
Found here ...
So while that table you posted sums things up nice and neat it's incorrect and is only an insight into the bias of some shooters mind. I remembered that the FBI doesn't record this info (much less post such information for public consumption) and did a quick search to refresh my memory of the particulars.
Then to top things off your reaction to such data (incorrect though it may be) is to choose a sub-par .22LR pistol.
All I can say to such a post is ... it's your life.
First of all, I SAID THAT IS THE WAY I TRAIN FOR AND THE APPROACH I CHOOSE TO GO. I also very clearly said others will have there chosen way to train. The FBI chart I used suites me just fine and regardless of other charts FBI etc I will train with the approach I deem necessary for MY safety! If the word FBI bothers you than sorry, that is just the way the chart was presents. . I could care less it the chart was FBI or not. And no one is talking about extremes. If you had been looking at all the post, I also carry a two 9mm's. I never once mentioned a 44 mag. etc.
The AR's and Shot guns were NOT concerning battles in Fallujah, for God sake. The mention of AR's and Shotguns were clearly mentioned in the video. And most likely why Modern day Police carry Shotguns and AR's. Maybe you are the one going to the extreme. And NO a 380 pocket gun is NOT GOING TO THE EXTREME.
I believe that most citizens that carry a concealed weapon in part based their selection on their personal physical condition. Thus it is convenient to carry a subcompact weapon. I've heard references made describing some individuals as "fat - dumb & lazy" or along the lines of "overly nourished" plus other descriptions that are not permissible to mention in print.
With out being rude or demeaning and not lumping all individuals' into that previously mentioned grouping that would seem in part to be the popularity of 380-Auto pistol in concealed carry applications.
In my age group 7th decade I do 3.5 miles at 15min per mile five days a week at the YMCA plus work on our wooded property.
As for myself to an existent I've gotten lazy also (warm weather) a S&W Shield 9X19mm along with a S&W M640 38Spl. With the seasonal changes the S&W Shield will be replaced with a S&W MP9c
The harsh reality is most people that carry are mentally unprepared to use their firearm in self-defense.
Common topics are small gun for pocket carry either as edc especially during the summer or when running quick errands such as the convenience store at night. Yet these are exactly two situations where being a victim of violent crime is the greatest. It is well documented that crime increases during the summer. Add drugs and alcohol and a determined attacker can be even more hard to stop.
Convenience stores are called "stop and rob" for a real reason and most robberies occur at night. Exactly the time that the you are making a quick trip to get something for the wife so you can eat dinner.
Then consider how little people practice shooting. There was a recent topic on THR about how many rounds a person shoots through a new gun before they consider it reliable enough for edc. A significant number of posters considered less than 100 rounds enough (some even go so far as to say two magazines) and only one range session.
I understand that dress codes and certain occupations present concealment challenges.
I am not insensitive to physical conditions that make shooting a more powerful pistol painful. My wife being a perfect example. But after a lot of searching she discovered that the S&W M&P was comfortable AND, most importantly, is using a powerful 9mm cartridge.
Up until two years I carried the snubby 38 Special and .380 class pistols (I own 9x18's. Close enough.) Now the snubbies are niche guns and the 9x18's are mostly conversation pieces about Commie guns.
Not to disparage you, but I do it every day.
Granted, a smaller gun would be easier, but I'm comfortable as-is.
My issue with the chart is that the FBI doesn't actually publish any information on distance (unless you're looking for the distance that the officer was murdered at).
So the information in the chart you published is false and incorrect. Read the article in the link that I posted. I don't have a problem with information from the FBI just so long as memes aren't posted using false and fabricated information.
Several others have mentioned .44 Mag's. Read through the quotes on this thread alone. This also isn't the first time this subject has been discussed and usually Fallujah is thrown in there somewhere to give an example of an extreme representing a combat situation requiring an extreme amount of preparedness.
All that I and some of the others are saying is that a slightly larger pistol (both in size and caliber) represents a much better chance of survival if you train with it.
A small caliber pistol has ...
• A small, difficult to hold on to grip.
• Often small, difficult to see sights.
• A small caliber with a substantial disadvantage in ballistics.
• A reduced capacity magazine.
And you're supposed to mitigate all these disadvantages during possibly one of the most stressful episodes of your life with possibly several assailants coming at you and trying to cause you an extreme amount of harm, rape you or kill you with whatever weapons they have that run the gambit from fists and feet, to higher capacity pistols up to military style mag-fed rifles.
That's a difficult task.
Funniest thing I've heard all week!
Unless you mean .357 Sig.
Depends. Comparing the 9mm to what? The .380? Yes, it's powerful. In some cases it has twice the M.E.
Very true. Still made me laugh out loud though.
Yeah, generally the 9mm isn't what comes to mind when someone says the word 'powerful' in relation to pistols and revolvers.
Exactly. Though just because I found that part of the post by @BSA1 funny, doesn't mean I disagree with everything else written in it. Convenience and comfort sneak into our lives in all kinds of way. In the case of being armed for self defense, I think those compromises can easily give us a false sense of security. But this is getting off topic.
What makes "civilian concealed carry" different, in terms of adequacy relative to the weapon in hand, from any other example of firearm carry, when using a firearm against people when one finds him or herself in a gunfight? LEO in uniform, undercover officer, armed mall security, off-duty policeman, or lawfully armed civilian- once that gun (which is whatever one you brought to the fight) is in your hand, all that matters is winning.
I've been legally carrying concealed about 25 years.
When I first started carrying I was content with "just" a 380 or 38 snub. (Had read Evan Marshall books and knew all the 1 shot stop percentages )
Over time my carry increased (older & wiser) and my clothing was (is) selected with concealment in mind.
Relaxed fit shorts or pants and a loose fitting untucked shirt is my standard attire.
After nearly two decades of loose fitting clothes, tight fitting pants & shirt (like teenagers wear) might induce an aneurysm.
A few years ago I would have incorrectly thought a 1911, Glock 21, 22 or 35 too big to conceal effectively, I was wrong.
Relaxed fit, stripes, plaid, some type of print, all help slight printing go unnoticed; I been carrying a Glock 21 AIWB under loose untucked stripe polo.
James Bond always made amazing shots with his .380. In real life I'd be comfortable with a Ruger LC9s because I shoot it well. I'm found with a Kahr PM45 because I shoot it well. There are plenty of debates about caliber but I'm most comfortable with and carry a .45.
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
by Greg Ellifritz
James Bond's most famous handgun was a PPK chambered in 32 ACP. M said it hit like a brick outhouse.
Depends on if you are the one shooting or getting shot. A couple of 380 shots into the chest or face might seem pretty powerful to the poor slob that had to eat them.
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