Anyone use FMJ ammo as their carry ammo?

[Deanimator]

So what happens to those people if your HP fails to expand or you miss?

I'm no worse off than if I'd used FMJs and the likelihood is that they will expand and stop in the target. Don't miss.

You should be sure of your background regardless of what kind of ammo you are using

I wonder how many people in the thick of a close range gunfight say, "I'd better let the guy shoot me. I'm using FMJs and there are people on the other side of the person trying to murder me."

If you check into it you'll find that most of those NYPD bystander hits were from misses not bullets that had already penetrated a perp.

Massad Ayoob checked both. He SPECIFICALLY addresses the through and throughs. The chronic poor marksmanship of the NYPD isn't an excuse for me to not take a reasonable measure to avoid avoidable collateral damage.

While I prefer HPs I'm not going to take a risky shot with bystanders behind the target just because I've got HPs loaded in my pistol. Unlike NYPD I don't get to shrug off dead bystanders

So then you'll let yourself be shot?

 

[Robert Wilson]

A few people here have apparently tried FMJ while hunting and were shocked at how poorly it performed. I'm one of them. "It's all theory until the metal hits the meet", and I've seen enough to know that handguns need every advantage they can get.

 

[788Ham]

Deafdave3,

A HP is better for one reason, to make "one big friggin' hole" ! That way, when it passes through the BG, you'll have 2 humongous holes bleeding him out. I carry 6 rds of FMJ in my .32 auto, 73 grain bullets, in my .44 mag., I carry 6 rds of 300 grain XTP's. Plain and simple, when I need the "extra help", the bigger, better gets called on, no leg, arm shots either.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I use corbon DPX in 380 and up My rifle .490 lead round ball and patch and 90gr Black powder . Keep the pan primed and a fresh flint . Only 1 shot but that long rifle gets attention.

I also still have dial up present connection speed is 26.4 Kbps Thats fast tonight. Hey when you live in country have to give up a few things.

 

[1911 guy]

230gr HydroShok or 230gr hardball, depending on the weather. Hardball in the wintertime for a bit more penetration. I carry a 5" pistol in .45 Auto.

 

[bigfatdave]

45 fmj goes in 45 comes out 45 goes threw bone and all, i like big bullets that are pre expanded

So you think FMJ runs through like a drillbit, leaving a neat hole bored out behind it?

 

[cabinet-cruncher]

I carry jhp in both my xd9 & P250 40 s&w for both penetration & to limit OVER-penetration. I don't want my round


Sent from my Droid Incredible Using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Weevil]

I'm no worse off than if I'd used FMJs and the likelihood is that they will expand and stop in the target. Don't miss.

True, you won't be any worse off but those poor folks standing behind your target will be.


Are you serious?


Don't miss???


Yeah great plan as long as the badguy stands there like a deer in the headlights, heaven forbid he does something unexpected like move to avoid getting shot.

I wonder how many people in the thick of a close range gunfight say, "I'd better let the guy shoot me. I'm using FMJs and there are people on the other side of the person trying to murder me."

So if the guy is standing in front of a crowd of people you're gonna start blasting away at him, collateral damage be damned???

Aren't you the guy that just said you can't just shrug off dead bystanders like the NYPD???

Massad Ayoob checked both. He SPECIFICALLY addresses the through and throughs. The chronic poor marksmanship of the NYPD isn't an excuse for me to not take a reasonable measure to avoid avoidable collateral damage.

Well that may well be but you were the one who seemed to imply that all those dead bystanders were from through and through shots caused by FMJ.

So if they were killed by misses due to the NYPD's poor marksmanship then what makes a difference if they were using HPs or FMJ???

So then you'll let yourself be shot?

Depends on the situation.

Saving my own life is a high priority but also don't want to live with the thought of killing an innocent bystander.

I don't believe it would be something I could just shrug off.


So you would feel justified in killing innocent people standing behind your target just because you're using HPs???

 

[Erik M]

Ive been real curious about some 9mm 95 grain jacketed soft points I saw on CTD for about 13 bucks for 50.

Scratch this. Stuff wouldnt even make good target ammo, I almost feel victim to CTD marketing.

Only carry ammo I use in my current rotation is hardcast wadcutters in the .357 woods gun.

 

[Deanimator]

True, you won't be any worse off but those poor folks standing behind your target will be.

They certainly might be if I use FMJs as my carry ammunition. It's why I don't. Shoot the wrong person, and it doesn't matter if you use FMJs, JHPs or HEP-T.

If you're going to let somebody murder you because there are bystanders behind him who might be harmed because of your insistence on using ammunition likely to cause through and throughs, that's your choice. It's certainly not mine.

I don't live in the Gobi desert, Greenland or the Bonneville salt flats. EVERYWHERE I'm likely to be will probably have lots of people. If you're going to let yourself (and your family) be murdered because of that, you might as well just not carry at all. Instead, I carry ammunition with a reasonable likelihood of the bullet remaining in the target.

And yeah, don't miss. Unlike the cops, I'm not indemnfied except for a GOOD shoot. In Ohio, if you try to rob me and I shoot you dead where you stand, or cripple you for life and it's ruled justified, the state says that the shootee and his mutant family can pound sand. If I foolishly carry FMJs and get a through and through that could easily have been avoided, I'm toast, justified shooting or not.

 

[Bubba613]

Anyone who thinks a 230gr .45 is anything but a FMJ, no matter what the bullet construction, is fooling himself.

 

[Al Thompson]

a 230gr .45 is anything but a FMJ

Bubba, that statement was true in about 1988. Now, it's demonstratively incorrect.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Various .45ACP JHPs (test 2).html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/230grainHSSB.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/230 grain Winchester SXT.html

 

[Weevil]

They certainly might be if I use FMJs as my carry ammunition. It's why I don't. Shoot the wrong person, and it doesn't matter if you use FMJs, JHPs or HEP-T.

That still doesn't change the fact that even the best HPs only expand approximately 70% of the time under the best of condition.

Even with HPs you cannot count on them not getting through and through penetration.

Thinking you won't hit bystanders just because you're using HPs is a false sense of security.

If you're going to let somebody murder you because there are bystanders behind him who might be harmed because of your insistence on using ammunition likely to cause through and throughs, that's your choice. It's certainly not mine.

I don't live in the Gobi desert, Greenland or the Bonneville salt flats. EVERYWHERE I'm likely to be will probably have lots of people. If you're going to let yourself (and your family) be murdered because of that, you might as well just not carry at all. Instead, I carry ammunition with a reasonable likelihood of the bullet remaining in the target.

Once again I ask what does it matter if you're using HPs or FMJ since HPs can't be counted on to expand 100% of the time???

If you have to take a risky shot then do what you gotta do but don't fool yourself into thinking that those bystanders will be safe and sound just because you're using an HP.

If it fails to expand they will be just as dead.

HPs certainly have their advantages but ensuring the safety of innocent bystanders isn't one of them.

Since you're so sure that FMJ wreaks havoc on bystanders perhaps you can share with us some verifiable examples of bystanders killed or maimed by through and through shots.

I realize it's not easy to just pull up links but since you feel so strongly about this there must be some incident you can recall to justify your opinion. Perhaps one of Mr. Ayoob's reports to back up your claims?

And yeah, don't miss. Unlike the cops, I'm not indemnfied except for a GOOD shoot. In Ohio, if you try to rob me and I shoot you dead where you stand, or cripple you for life and it's ruled justified, the state says that the shootee and his mutant family can pound sand. If I foolishly carry FMJs and get a through and through that could easily have been avoided, I'm toast, justified shooting or not.

Oh you don't?

And just how many actual shootings have you been involved in so we can verify this claim of perfect marksmanship?

It's easy to sit their behind a keyboard and condemn the cops and their lousy shooting, but if you were actually in a life or death situation you might find things don't work out nearly as perfectly as they do in Billy Badass fantasies and daydreams.

And once again what proof do you have of anyone anywhere involved in a "justified" shooting who has been prosecuted and convicted for using FMJ???

Which specific case is it that made you realize you'd be "toast"?

 

[Deanimator]

Bubba, that statement was true in about 1988. Now, it's demonstratively incorrect.

I prefer the 200gr. JHP to the 230gr., but in EVERY case, in the typical self-defense situation I might face, I would choose the 230gr. JHP over the FMJ.

Last year I wanted to buy some more Hornady "TAP" 200gr. JHPs and couldn't find ANY ANYWHERE. I had to settle for 230gr. Gold Dots. I would NEVER pick FMJs if ANYTHING else were available.

 

[SwampWolf]

Since you're so sure that FMJ wreaks havoc on bystanders perhaps you can share with us some verifiable examples of bystanders killed or maimed by through and through shots.

I realize it's not easy to just pull up links but since you feel so strongly about this there must be some incident you can recall to justify your opinion. Perhaps one of Mr. Ayoob's reports to back up your claims?

In his book " The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry", Mr.Ayoob made it clear that he opposes using hardball ammunition for any self-defense scenario, citing at least thirty documented cases that revealed 46% of wounded innocent bystanders were being "...hit by bullets that went through offenders' bodies or through objects that hopefully should have acted as backstops..." Mr. Ayoob concluded, "...Collective reality has given us a message, and it is this: Save the over-penetrating 'hardball' for range practice. Load your concealed carry or home defense handgun with ammunition designed, and proven to be likely, to stay inside the body of the offender who forces you to shoot him. It's the responsible thing to do."

Now I'm not suggesting that Mr. Ayoob's opinion should hold sway in any discussion regarding the best handgun bullet to use for self-defense but he is a respected and acknowledged expert regarding the subject and, besides, Weevil suggested that Deanimator provide "one of Mr. Ayoob's reports to back up (his) claims..." If you read the entirety of the excellent aforementioned book, the inescapable fact is that Mr. Ayoob is opposed to using FMJ handgun bullets to defend yourself with and is an unabashed proponent of using a proper expanding projectile for said purpose.

Though I am making every effort to remain open-minded about the matter at hand (as evidenced in my previous post in this thread), it seems to me that the proponents of using hollow-point bullets for self-defense in most conceivable scenarios have the more persuasive argument(s) at this point in time. The only caveats in my mind are that (1) hardball bullets will feed in some pistols that won't accomodate a more "aggressive" profile and, (2), it is arguable that FMJ bullets might offer better penetration when it comes to shooting an assailant dressed in heavy winter clothing. Said caveats have merit if one subscribes to the ideas that extreme reliability trumps all other factors when considering how to load a particular self-defense pistol and that without adequate penetration, it doesn't make any difference as to how wide a bullet expands.

 

[mack]

Given adequate penetration a good jhp is a more effective round than an equivalent round in fmj of the same caliber - for that matter I think from my experience that a lead wad cutter is more effective than an equivalent fmj.

However, I live in the country (deer, coyotes, coons, possums, feral dogs, etc....) and I have shot a number of animals with a handgun - and there was little difference with fmj or jhp when using the same caliber - placement was much more important in terms of effectiveness. What I mostly found is that a rifle or shotgun is much more effective than a handgun. Or in a handgun that a .45 caliber handgun is more effective than a .22 handgun.

So while I don't doubt that all things being equal that a jhp will be more effective than a fmj round out of the same handgun (given a caliber that will give adequate penetration) - the difference is many times not as significant as the differences between calibers.

I choose to carry .45acp fmj - because that is what I reload, shoot, and practice with. I know how it shoots and functions in my guns. I would not carry any type of ammunition that I have not shot reliably out of my gun at least 500 rounds. I really don't have the money or inclination to shoot 500 rounds of a specific jhp round out of each of my carry guns.

Besides if the optimum value is stopping power - then you had best carry a major caliber rifle or shotgun - handguns pale to the stopping power of rifles and shotguns. Well maybe we compromise at handguns because we can't always have a rifle or shotgun handy - well just in handguns then one should carry a S&W .500 or a Ruger .480 - or failing that at least a 10mm or a .44mag. What you don't - why that's crazy. Well, anyone can carry at least a .45acp - there are methods for CC of a firearm in .45acp that anyone can utilize - yes it may not be stylish, it may weigh more, it may take more work and effort to carry it - but it's your life - why compromise with a smaller less effective caliber?

The point is that we all make all sorts or compromises when it comes to the guns we own and that we choose to carry and how we carry them. What holster, what method of concealment or carry, what caliber, what gun, what etc... work best for you is not universally applicable to everyone else. Neither is the choice of ammo.

That also applies to the penetration question - I would rather have too much penetration than too little - that is my choice. You want less penetration and that is your choice then go for it. As to innocents hurt by over penetration - that is a risk no matter what ammo you use - (well maybe not .25) - but so is missing and hitting an innocent - so is not having adequate penetration and having a perp continue an attack in which they kill or injure an innocent. A one way cardboard conceptualization of the issue of penetration is not the one and only "true" way to see or understand the issue.

 

[RainDodger]

This spirited discussion will never end... you guys know that, don't you?

FMJ here... in both my .45 gov't (230gr.) and in my .38 Super (130gr.).

I dare any of you to stand in front of either one of them.

 

[deafdave3]

I use FMJ in my .270 for squirrel and rabbit hunting.

 

[mack]

Does Mr. Ayoob have a study that deals with perps that survived and killed or injured innocents due to lack of penetration? I know he looked at the Miami shoot out where that was an issue if I recall correctly. Greater penetration means less effective cover for a perp - I'm all for giving criminals less effective cover.

What does Ayoob say about carrying a rifle or shotgun in your vehicle as a primary weapon - much more accurate - much less likely to miss and hit an innocent.

The point is that if we are to be overly concerned about penetration then we should carry .25 caliber handguns or tasers instead. Yet, no one here or Mr. Ayoob is advocating that. If Mr. Ayoob or you are concerned about over penetration as a significant part of your self defense considerations and consider jhp ammo as an important part of avoiding over penetration - then that is fine and I wouldn't quibble with your decision or even personal recommendation - but it is just that - a personal recommendation - based on one way of approaching and evaluating a possible situation. Others mileage may vary.

 

[deafdave3]

FMJ here... in both my .45 gov't (230gr.) and in my .38 Super (130gr.).

I dare any of you to stand in front of either one of them.

ROFL!!!

 

[Al Thompson]

I dare any of you to stand in front of either one of them

One of the issues with FMJ is that I can stand behind two other folks and still catch a bullet. Dr. Fackler has a drawing superposing gelatin data that shows 230 FMJ can easily go through two normal folks and strike the 3rd one in line.

And FMJ is almost universally banned for hunting use in the US. Even out of rifles... In police work, that's called a "clue".

 

[JohnBiltz]

All I'm going to say is even New York City was finally convinced to go with hollow points and they sure did not want to. I don't even think its legal to hunt with FMJ in most states.

 

[Deanimator]

That still doesn't change the fact that even the best HPs only expand approximately 70% of the time under the best of condition.

What percentage of the time do FMJs expand?

If I shouldn't use JHPs because they don't expand 100% of the time, should I not use a HANDGUN because they don't stop the threat 100% of the time?

A handgun stops the threat more often than stern words and JHP expands more often than FMJ. I'll stand on those odds and certainly be no WORSE off.

 

[hardworker]

I dare any of you to stand in front of either one of them

I'm on the sidelines about the whole fmj vs jhp thing but I'd like to point out that if someone does take you up on this ridiculous challenge you'd be facing murder charges.

 

[Warhawk83]

Never carried FMJ except in an LCP when I couldn't find ammo. After going to the range with my new gun, Taurus 740 Slim, my assertions about FMJ were confirmed.
They gave me too low of a target, I could see the bullet impact the ground and then the berm, one of them actually ricocheted off the top of the berm. After that round, I looked at them, and they at me, and they brought the taller target.

I realize that doesn't emulate a real world defensive situation, but I don't want my round acting like it's in a pinball machine.