Anyone want to push for “Post Office Carry?”

[Yoda]

It makes no sense that an honest CCW holder be forced to park outside Post Office property, unholster his gun, and then stow it in his vehicle, before conducting business in the Post Office. Who wants to change this?

I think it would help sell "Post Office Carry" if we point out to our legislators that it would have ZERO cost to the taxpayers while inserting a bit of common sense into the lives of regular citizens (i.e., the post office is not in any way a "sensitive area" as defined by Heller).

Of course, no argument will sway the anti-gun bigots. Anyone who opposes National Reciprocity will also oppose Post Office Carry.

I propose the changes indicated below to current federal laws and regulations. The language to be added to three existing laws/regulations is in bold, and it is identical in each case (“...individuals with valid state-issued permits or licenses that authorize the concealed or open carry of weapons, including firearms, may bear such arms for lawful purposes, including lawful self defense, in the parking lots, lobbies, and customer service areas of any postal facility while conducting lawful business within the facilities.”)

Ideas?


39 CFR 232.1:

“Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes. However, individuals with valid state-issued permits or licenses that authorize the concealed or open carry of weapons, including firearms, may bear such arms for lawful purposes, including lawful self defense, in the parking lots, lobbies, and customer service areas of any postal facility while conducting lawful business within the facilities.”


18 U.S.C. 930 – Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal Facilities:

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both. However, individuals with valid state-issued permits or licenses that authorize the concealed or open carry of weapons, including firearms, may bear such arms for lawful purposes, including lawful self defense, in the parking lots, lobbies, and customer service areas of any postal facility while conducting lawful business within the facilities.”


39USC410(a):

“…insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of Chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the postal service. However, individuals with valid state-issued permits or licenses that authorize the concealed or open carry of weapons, including firearms, may bear such arms for lawful purposes, including lawful self defense, in the parking lots, lobbies, and customer service areas of any postal facility while conducting lawful business within the facilities.”

Your thoughts?

- - - Yoda

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Probably a pipe dream but I'd like to see it. To me Federal/Govt property is better called "public property". There should be no way to bar the exercise of the RKBA on public property. It's ours! We collectively own it, not the govt- they just administer it.

 

[DoubleMag]

How does this sound?

''If there is no metal detector or check point, no restriction on lawful carry''

OK , as politik goes, therefore the compromise would end up being (now that means after the other side giving something up)...

''If there is no metal detector or check point, no restriction on lawful CCW carry''

 

[AlexanderA]

What about states with "constitutional carry" (no permit required), or states that allow open carry without a permit? It seems that your proposal leaves them out.

In any case, this is a low priority compared to other things, such as the hearing protection act, national reciprocity, or (my favorite) repealing the Hughes Amendment.

None of these proposals is going anywhere in the current political climate. (But, on the other hand, neither are any antigun proposals.)

 

[hso]

You could simplify it to
...in accordance with state law

Remember the National Parks rule change and use it as the model.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

How about privatizing the postal service.
Post offices would no longer be federal buildings.

 

[hso]

Post offices would no longer be federal buildings.

Perhaps, but privatizing the PO isn't quite the same as transferring the real estate owned by the government. You could privatize operations, but have them going on in the PO properties (this is pretty common where a prime contractor operates government owned property). Without a change to the law we'd gain no benefit in properties still covered by the law.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Perhaps, but privatizing the PO isn't quite the same as transferring the real estate owned by the government. You could privatize operations, but have them going on in the PO properties (this is pretty common where a prime contractor operates government owned property). Without a change to the law we'd gain no benefit in properties still covered by the law.

In the majority of the small communities near me the USPS rents the post office locations at rates far greater than comparable properties in the area.

 

[herrwalther]

Deleted

 

[hdwhit]

drunkenpoacher wrote:
In the majority of the small communities near me the USPS rents the post office locations at rates far greater than comparable properties in the area.

Not sure what that has to do with the fact that privatizing operations wouldn't necessarily result in a transfer in ownership of the buildings.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Not sure what that has to do with the fact that privatizing operations wouldn't necessarily result in a transfer in ownership of the buildings.

The government would no longer be renting the buildings so they would no longer be federal property.

 

[BSA1]

Of course, no argument will sway the anti-gun bigots. Anyone who opposes National Reciprocity will also oppose Post Office Carry.

I propose the changes indicated below to current federal laws and regulations. The language to be added to three existing laws/regulations is in bold, and it is identical in each case (“...individuals with valid state-issued permits or licenses that authorize the concealed or open carry of weapons, including firearms, may bear such arms for lawful purposes, including lawful self defense, in the parking lots, lobbies, and customer service areas of any postal facility while conducting lawful business within the facilities.”)

Ideas?

Your thoughts?

- - - Yoda

Yes. You will not like them and will call continue to me names.

I oppose National Reciprocity and am not anti-gun. I am NRA Endowment member.

Why you think I am a bigot before meeting me is hard to imagine.

Your proposal discriminates against citizens that live in States that do not require a Conceal Carry License.

Conceal Carry Licensing is just elitism that discriminates against the poor and those who choose that live in States that do not require such silliness.

 

[blindhari]

USPS Postal regulations predate the Constitution of the US. The Postal Service was started by Benjamin Franklin at the behest of the Continental Congress. Franklin used English Tort Law to control what became a Civil Service organization. Civil Service was established by George Washington as first President of USA. To change the Congressional control of the USPS would require altering laws that predate the country and Constitution. Before you talk of changing USPS Regulations, I suggest you read them, all of them. I have read them 3 times end to end. They occupy 28 feet of shelf space. Retired Letter Carrier, Clerk, Supervisor, Manager. This does not include Civil Service Regulations. Quoting Regulation : 39 CFR 232.1 on a cherry pick basis is not ever going to get you permission to carry at the USPS.

blindhari
USPD retired

 

[RETG]

Get a petition going; I'll sign it, even though the last time I was in an actual US post office, I was able to legally carry a handgun.

 

[Evergreen]

How about we push to allow for constitutional rights, not only in the Post Office, but all federal buildings? Since when did federal buildings that were built with our own sweat and blood (aka tax money), have special status that circumvents our Constitution? It could be my own cynical opinion of the government, but it just appears the government looks for any excuse to turn a law-abiding gun owner into a felon when they can.

USPS Postal regulations predate the Constitution of the US. The Postal Service was started by Benjamin Franklin at the behest of the Continental Congress. Franklin used English Tort Law to control what became a Civil Service organization. Civil Service was established by George Washington as first President of USA. To change the Congressional control of the USPS would require altering laws that predate the country and Constitution. Before you talk of changing USPS Regulations, I suggest you read them, all of them. I have read them 3 times end to end. They occupy 28 feet of shelf space. Retired Letter Carrier, Clerk, Supervisor, Manager. This does not include Civil Service Regulations. Quoting Regulation : 39 CFR 232.1 on a cherry pick basis is not ever going to get you permission to carry at the USPS.

blindhari
USPD retired

If my tax money is paying for that US Post Office then I could care less if the USPS regulations predate the country. The name of the Post Office is the "United States Post Office". The United States is a Constitutional Republic. And, what if there was a regulation to keep certain minorities out of the post office, should we accept those too because they predate our Constitution? Sorry, but no dice.. If my tax money is paying the USPS and its services, I have the right to be an American citizen with full rights in that Post Office. Now, the one area where I will respect gun restrictions is in a foreign embassy, since that is considered a small foreign zone and important for diplomacy with various countries. Outside of that, I cannot support any "Gun Free" zones within the US borders , anywhere.


Speaking of which, I live in Washington state where they are seeking to pass legislation that will turn a good majority of gun owners into felons overnight. I'm getting ready to leave in a few months.

 

[blindhari]

Perhaps I was unclear. US Postal Dept goes back to 1774. It was so important to Constitution framers that it was written into The Constitution as enacted in I believe 1788.
It takes a takes a 2/3 majority of states to change it. If that were to happen it would set precedent to not just amend the US Constitution but to obliterate any part of it including the 2nd amendment and the entire Bill of Rights.
The US Postal Service has over 600,000 employees who can only carry a knife with a blade length of 1.3". Security guards and Postal Inspectors can carry firearms.
The US Postal Service is a function of the Office of the President of the United States and while rates are set by Congress, The POTUS writes and enforces the rules through the Executive Branch.
Getting Mail delivery (The USPS handles more than 40% of the entire world volume) is a right guaranteed in the constitution, packing in conceal carry, explosives, flammables, poison, is not.
Personally I have no interest in letting Liberals know how easy it would be to suborn the US Postal Service.

blindhari

 

[FAS1]

The USPS is using private businesses more and more to provide contacted services on the businesses premises. These are known as CPU's or Contract Postal Units.
http://about.usps.com/suppliers/becoming/contract-postal-unit.htm

I have one just around the corner in a good size convenient store. I haven't been to a Federally owned Post Office in quite a while and I bet I do more shipping than most of you. I haven't had any issues with shipping from there with the stores employees (not USPS employees). I even had a conversation while in line with a man open carrying. Just do a search and there is probably one near you.

Notice the Postal Sign ⬇⬇⬇

 

[SKILCZ]

USPS Postal regulations predate the Constitution of the US. The Postal Service was started by Benjamin Franklin at the behest of the Continental Congress. Franklin used English Tort Law to control what became a Civil Service organization. Civil Service was established by George Washington as first President of USA. To change the Congressional control of the USPS would require altering laws that predate the country and Constitution. Before you talk of changing USPS Regulations, I suggest you read them, all of them. I have read them 3 times end to end. They occupy 28 feet of shelf space. Retired Letter Carrier, Clerk, Supervisor, Manager. This does not include Civil Service Regulations. Quoting Regulation : 39 CFR 232.1 on a cherry pick basis is not ever going to get you permission to carry at the USPS.

blindhari
USPD retired

Thank you for your years of service in the USPD.

Since you've read them multiple times, can you please spare us the 28 feet of shelf space and quote or link the USPS regulations pertaining to banning firearms?

Given your expertise, what do you suggest as the best means of restoring 2A rights at post offices?

Your input would be much appreciated given the length and complexity of federal regulations. No regulation should need to take 28 feet of shelf space. Our government was meant to be simple at the federal level.

 

[SKILCZ]

The USPS is using private businesses more and more to provide contacted services on the businesses premises. These are known as CPU's or Contract Postal Units.
http://about.usps.com/suppliers/becoming/contract-postal-unit.htm

I have one just around the corner in a good size convenient store. I haven't been to a Federally owned Post Office in quite a while and I bet I do more shipping than most of you. I haven't had any issues with shipping from there with the stores employees (not USPS employees). I even had a conversation while in line with a man open carrying. Just do a search and there is probably one near you.

Notice the Postal Sign ⬇⬇⬇
View attachment 775092

Is carry legal at these locations?

 

[blindhari]

SKILCZ

The regulations covering mails, I know it sounds silly to say mails, are not formal federal regulations. They are enforced as Federal regulations due to Congress, the federal courts and executive order. They start before the US did and are justified through 16th century British law. Fire arms are a small fraction of things regulated on USPS property. Every time some one thought they had a good idea another regulation was written. Size, shape construction, transport, security, Human resources, traffic laws, theft, method and means of delivery were written by executive branch political "appointees". As late as 1969 large city postal units fired employees every 89th day and then rehired them the next day to prevent minorities or those who "didn't vote right" from steady employment. For the last 244 years this system has been sorted through a number of times but as it is literally in section 8, item 7 of the US Constitution where no one has ever figured out how to get rid of the ludicrous and patently illegal. The USPS is nothing more or less than a political patronage system that stumbles through the times between presidential elections and some how delivers the mail. I walked away in 2002. I have no idea what changes have been plastered on since then, but in the prior 228 years of postal history a compost heap of politics prevented any meaningful change. It still does, not that there are not people who would change it for the better, they can't. The day to day running of the USPS is based on the cherry picked regulations that work and ignoring the rest of them. Myself, I do not carry firearms on USPS property. I am in my 70s and sheer political inertia will not allow a change in the lifetime I have left. It just ain't going to change, no way, no how.

blindhari

 

[Bigmike79]

does anyone really take their gun out of their pocket or off their waste and park down the street while going to the post office? It's a stupid law that nobody pays any attention to. Maybe if I went to the post office more than once every 3 months I would have a dog in the fight.

 

[Coop45]

SKILCZ

The regulations covering mails, I know it sounds silly to say mails, are not formal federal regulations. They are enforced as Federal regulations due to Congress, the federal courts and executive order. They start before the US did and are justified through 16th century British law. Fire arms are a small fraction of things regulated on USPS property. Every time some one thought they had a good idea another regulation was written. Size, shape construction, transport, security, Human resources, traffic laws, theft, method and means of delivery were written by executive branch political "appointees". As late as 1969 large city postal units fired employees every 89th day and then rehired them the next day to prevent minorities or those who "didn't vote right" from steady employment. For the last 244 years this system has been sorted through a number of times but as it is literally in section 8, item 7 of the US Constitution where no one has ever figured out how to get rid of the ludicrous and patently illegal. The USPS is nothing more or less than a political patronage system that stumbles through the times between presidential elections and some how delivers the mail. I walked away in 2002. I have no idea what changes have been plastered on since then, but in the prior 228 years of postal history a compost heap of politics prevented any meaningful change. It still does, not that there are not people who would change it for the better, they can't. The day to day running of the USPS is based on the cherry picked regulations that work and ignoring the rest of them. Myself, I do not carry firearms on USPS property. I am in my 70s and sheer political inertia will not allow a change in the lifetime I have left. It just ain't going to change, no way, no how.

blindhari

After Runyon left, the next guy hired back the dead wood that Runyon had gotten rid of.

 

[John_R]

It would be much better to simply enforce the 2nd Amendment. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

There's a long history of Post Office shootings, which no law could have prevented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_postal_killings#United_States

 

[George P]

Anyone who opposes National Reciprocity will also oppose Post Office Carry.

And you would be (and are) completely wrong. I adamantly oppose national reciprocity, but have no issue with allowing CCW in any USPS location, whether rented mall space or owned stand-alone facility. One has NOTHING to do with the other.

 

[MTNSTRYDER]

We do have one Post Office here in Montpielier Vermont which is in a federal building with a metal detecter and armed guards.Its a real pain to go in no guns/knives/change or belt I even had to remove my boots once when a friend was out of town and asked me to get his mail.As for other places and post offices that have those signs it’s concealed carry I ignore the sign.