Anyone watch "Oil Storm"?

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And your point is?

If the oil company and I make an agreement for them to sell me so much oil at such a price, why should it be the government's place to step in and say I can't do it, because other people may need that oil?
 
Can you NOT see how your last sentence is a direct contridiction of your first one? And for the record, NO - I do not AGREE. Some of the finest or funest things in life could be considered "wasting" natural resources - spectator sports, hunting, amusement parks, movies, television, radio, music, art, plays, sky diving, moto-cross, "plinking", other shooting sports. Lastely, even you admit to not being frugal - something about the Prius not being a good family car? Maybe that "individual" in the SUV has a soccar team to coach, or trailer with a scooter for Shriner parades, or his minivan is in the shop - point is you DON'T KNOW, (nor is it any of your business) WHY that particular person is driing that vehicle that day. Do you really want someone to go through YOUR life and decide for you what you "need" and what you have that isn't "being frugal"? Or maybe we should let people decide for themselves....

I think you are misunderstanding me. I never said ANYONE other than the INDIVIDUAL should decide what they need. And I totally mean that. The only point I am trying to bring up, is that many folks, if they honestly looked at what they think they "need" could probably find some ways to cut back with little or no impact on their overall quality of life.

I also admit, openly, that I could be more frugal as well. I'm not claiming to be "holier" than anyone. We ALL could do a little better.

And this isn't just about the environment, oil, etc. It's about the survivability of our nation. We have slowly but surely made ourselves so dependant on other nations, many of whom are not exatly friendly, for much of our energy and manufacturered goods.

I am pretty much a Libertarian and thus believe totally in free choice. But just because I CAN make a choice does not always mean I SHOULD make that choice.

Sure, you can believe that all these folks with SUV's are hauling soccer teams every day. I am sure some are. Eight people in an SUV is certainly energy efficient transportation. However, most of the folks I personally know with Expeditions use them as daily commuter vehicles and two trips a year from Home Depot. It's their choice - they DO have the right to make that choice - but that doesn't make it the right choice.

Free will is a wonderful thing. However, voluntarily having some consideration for those around us is one of the hallmarks of civilization.

So, I reiterate - all I am advocating is for people to pay a little closer attention to how they use our natural resources. If everyone saved just a little, it could make a real difference. How an individual goes about this can be their business.

I don't understand why everyone keeps thinking anyone is advocating people choosing for you. Look at it this way - if we voluntarily start to conserve and seek out new energy solutions NOW, then the government will not force us to later. And, that WILL happen some day, it has to. I agree with you - I'd rather make my own choices than have anyone do it for me.

Also remember that this isn't JUST about tree-hugging and electric cars, it's about our national security. The survivability of our nation. Perhaps I am the only one who is uncomfortable being so dependant on foreign powers for energy. Yeah, I lose sleep at night knowing that my country can no longer support itself. It bothers me.
 
If the oil company and I make an agreement for them to sell me so much oil at such a price, why should it be the government's place to step in and say I can't do it, because other people may need that oil?

The sad fact is that if we don't change our ways it may indeed come to that someday. That would suck ... free market is definitely the way to go. However, the free market doesn't seem to be readily supplying alternatives to oil. These alternatives are necessary for there to be true competition. Right now, oil just competes with oil.

I'd love to someday be able to choose localized power sources for my house (fuel cells, perhaps? Who knows?) and tell the oil companies and utilities to take a hike.

When oil gets truly short in supply - be it 5, 10, or 50 years from now - the government may be forced to seize control of the oil industry, or what's left of it as a matter of national security. This and other wonderful development await us if we continue to simply consume with no thought about where the energy and materials came from.
 
If it ever gets to that point, I can probably handel it. But it better be set up that everyone is equally inconvenienced. As in no more kids driving to school if there is a bus in their area, no driving to work if you live within a mile or so, two people from the same house can't drive to the same destination simeoutaneously, no extra gas because your kid is in soccer, and I don't have a kid, etc.
 
So, you just want to let it sit in the ground, not being used?

You see, the good thing about America is that I am free to waste whatever I can pay for. If I want a car that is measured in gallons per mile, and I can afford to feed it, why can you tell me that I can't buy the gas? It is a private party sale between the gas station and me, I don't see you involved. It is mine to waste as I see fit. Just because we have built up a dependency on the stuff, doesn't mean I should be forced to only use so much, so there is more for you.

I fully support your right to waste whatever you want with no thought of the consequences of such actions. But that doesn't mean you should. It just means you can.

Did I say I or anyone was going to TELL you anything? I don't think so. All I am advocating is a little bit of self examination on how we use our natural resources. Somehow, a lot of folks here seem to think that this is a totally unreasonable suggestion.

And, if you really think that the "good thing" about America is that we're free to recklessly waste everything - than I think you need to re-read the writings of the Founding Fathers. This country was ABSOLUTELY NOT born of people who were ONLY concerned with themselves and to hell with everyone else. It was made of people who recognized that an investment of effort into the common good paid returns in spades later on - in the form of freedom and prosperity for all. This country was made great by people who were willing to sacrifice their wealth and often their lives to leave this nation better for their children than it was for them.
 
If it ever gets to that point, I can probably handel it. But it better be set up that everyone is equally inconvenienced. As in no more kids driving to school if there is a bus in their area, no driving to work if you live within a mile or so, two people from the same house can't drive to the same destination simeoutaneously, no extra gas because your kid is in soccer, and I don't have a kid, etc.

I would rather it nor get to that. I like my way of life the way it is just like everyone else. The best way we can preserve our way of life is to be proactive now before there really is a serious problem.

Self-regulate of the government WILL evntually do it for you.
 
And your point is?

If the oil company and I make an agreement for them to sell me so much oil at such a price, why should it be the government's place to step in and say I can't do it, because other people may need that oil?

Point is is that government regulation is necessary to promote economic interests and prevent the market from burning itself out before stocks are depleted and technologies developed. Oil has every bit the economic importance of water and no one decries the government prohibiting those "who can afford it" from squandering all the water they can afford to the detriment of everyone else.
 
Oil has every bit the economic importance of water and no one decries the government prohibiting those "who can afford it" from squandering all the water they can afford to the detriment of everyone else.

Really? Are you sure about that? I don't want the gov't banning decorative , swimming pools, car washes, or any other "nonbeneficial to the proletariat" uses. Guess that makes me no one.
 
Really? Are you sure about that? I don't want the gov't banning decorative , swimming pools, car washes, or any other "nonbeneficial to the proletariat" uses. Guess that makes me no one.

The solution would be to use gray water or find your own source of water for your extravagances. What you want has little bearing on the matter when compared to the economic benefit of utilizing resources wisely and sustainably.

Relatedly, the government probably shouldn't restrict your right to cry "fire" in a crowded theater either, but they do - for the common good, something you may or may not consider socialism. I see nothing wrong with government restriction on use of resources, so long as you aren't completely denied the use of that resource, the restrictions are equitably applied and the basis for the restriction sound. I also don't believe they've violated your fundamental rights such as they would have via restricting your right of self-defense as achieved by denying RKBA; certainly the fedgov's constitutional ability to regulate foreign and interstate commerce gives them the power.
 
First, I never said that I engaged in such usages. I just showed that your blanket statement assuming that everyone agreed with gov't regulation was inherently false.

Second, extravagances? I think we see the real point you are concealing. You believe in gov't regulation of those things which you find "extravagant" or inappropriate. Fine. Please list the things you enjoy or which other people find idiosyncratic. I'm sure we can find a majority who would clamor to regulate your life to control those things, or ban them outright. I mean, if we are talking about using the power of gov't to intefere with freedom and put an end to "extravagances" we should extend that to all such matters, right?
 
First, I never said that I engaged in such usages. I just showed that your blanket statement assuming that everyone agreed with gov't regulation was inherently false.

Second, extravagances? I think we see the real point you are concealing. You believe in gov't regulation of those things which you find "extravagant" or inappropriate. Fine. Please list the things you enjoy or which other people find idiosyncratic. I'm sure we can find a majority who would clamor to regulate your life to control those things, or ban them outright. I mean, if we are talking about using the power of gov't to intefere with freedom and put an end to "extravagances" we should extend that to all such matters, right?

First, whether or not you agree is irrelevant. The point should be whether or not you benefit in the long term. It would be well and good if you could afford to drive a Hemi cuda every day or fill your pool with fresh water each week, but none of this would do you much good for very long if farmers went under because they couldn't get the supplies and feed they needed to raise crops or livestock and transport these to market or drought conditions affected the food and water supplies. Point is, there are folks who can afford to do quite a bit, but with regard to scarce and vital resources (meaning that water, unlike diamonds, is a necessity) others pay the bill for their use. through loss of use.

Second, yes those things are extravagances. They may be nice to have, but they don't meet basic needs and their attainment shouldn't interfere with meeting basic needs. You don't fill your swimming pool or turn on your fountain when there might be issues with having enough water to irrigate crops, promote health and hygiene, and to drink. Oil isn't a basic human need, but a healthy economy is the way humans provide for their basic needs and oil is key to a health economy for the forseeable future. There will be persons who can afford to pay any monetary price to meet their needs, but unsustainable oil use will certainly make such attainment harder for those who can't, and nevermind the sociopolitical implications of a large number of restless and deprived.

Additionally, no one is advocating denying anyone anything that they can come up with their own supply of. If you can find the water, then you can fill your pool or run your fountain as you see fit, but not from stocks held for common use. If you can drill for your own oil on your own land, then more power to you for determining how you will use it.
 
buzz_knox: you are explaining your stance in such a fashion that it sounds ridiculous. The tragedy of the commons is a well-known economic phenomenon that is demonstrably true. Government regulation of common resources is the usual response, and is generally seen as an acceptable one. Naturally, said government regulation can (and often does) over-regulate, but that does not mean all government regulation is invalid.

For example, by your logic, if someone - I'll use Bill Gates as an example, since he's probably got the funding to really start pulling something like this off - trotted down into Las Vegas, and bought all potable water, the citizens would just have to move or die of dehydration. Any government regulation to prevent a private citizen from owning all of the readily-available potable water is clearly socialism, and tramples upon your rights. Or, in this case, Bill Gates'.

Similarly, if the Chinese government were to fund an American citizen in purchasing every imported barrel of oil, our government should simply sit back and watch it happen. Anything else is socialism.

If you accept that there should be a mechanism in place for addressing those situations - as matters of national security, if nothing else - then you simply disagree with where the regulatory line should be set. Arguing that we are currently over-regulated, and that further regulation is unjustified, is an easily defensible position. Arguing that government should regulate nothing at all is significantly more difficult.
 
The economy won't collapse w/o Helium, AFAIK and water use is already restricted in many places, depending on conditions.

Don't know much about helium, huh? Yes, waer use is often restricted or rationed, but even in those places, private pools are usually permitted, (People's Republic of California notwithstanding...)
 
First, waste disposal. Even if we start building breeder reactors, there will eventually be final end products that something needs to be done with. Granted, the higher the danger of the waste, the shorter tha half-life, but there's a "sweet spot" in the middle where the waste is uncomfortably dangerous and the half-life uncomfortably long. I'm sure this would be solvable in a more pro-nuclear political climate, but it still bears thinking about.

Viitrification, seal in stainless steel, and drop in Marianas Trench? Bury in antarctica, Sahara desert, old nuke testing ranges?


Similar to the above, decommissioning nuclear plants needs to be addressed. I'm all for building new, modern designs to replace the aging ones we've got. But I'm unaware of any real plan for decommissioning the old plants (this doesn't mean one doesn't exist, obviously, just that I don't know of it).

Navy buries old sub reactors. The steel COULD be recycled into components for NEW nuke plant equipment, etc.

And finally, many people claim that nuclear power's image of cheap energy is flawed, because it depends on government subsidies of plants. That without those subsidies, nuclear power would end up being significantly more expensive than other "traditional" means of energy generation.

I'm willing to bet that gov requirements ADD far more to nuke plant cost than any subsidy, plus how much is it worth to not have to send troops to die to keep the A?C running?
 
"Provide for the common defense" - try doing that without any energy.


Just because DOD uses it is no justification for an extra-constitutional nationalization/control of an industry. The military also uses aluminum, smokeless powder, steel, leather, brass, copper, glass, plastic, fiberglass, cotton, nylon, paint, lumber, paper, computers, trucks....all without the need for a "epartment Of...".
 
Look at it this way - if we voluntarily start to conserve and seek out new energy solutions NOW, then the government will not force us to later. And, that WILL happen some day, it has to.


I must have missed the part of the Constitution that delegates to the Fed the power and the duty to either guarantee me or deny me a legal commodity readily available in the free market, or to set its price, or ration it - WWII, Comrade Roosevelt, and current practice notwithstanding...
 
Point is is that government regulation is necessary to promote economic interests and prevent the market from burning itself out before stocks are depleted and technologies developed.


Pure balderdash. The unfettered, untampered-with free market is the best arbiter and rationer of resources, and has resulted in the greatest improvement in the human condition, than anything yet devised. In such an invironment, an increasingly scarce resource rises in price, stimulating development of new supplies or even better substitutes. Much of the petroleum now consumed is in fact substitutes for other things that priced themselves out of the market. Examples: automatic transmissions are now running on Dexron or simular petroleum fluids, instead of the whale oil they were originally designed for, plus we now use kerosine (or electricity) instead of same for illumination. Neoprene (and others) for rubber, asphalt for cement, nylon (and others) for silk, lexan (and others) for glass...all without a "National Whale Oil " policy OR department! How did we ever do it? :rolleyes:


I'll give you credit though - your thinking is conventional wisdom in many economics classes, and such Worker's Paradises as China, the former Soviet Union, Cuba, and North Korea. We see how well they turned out....
 
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What you want has little bearing on the matter when compared to the economic benefit of utilizing resources wisely and sustainably.

..and there we have the essential flaw in your reasoning. Adam Smith, please remand this fellow for remedial counseling as to why "what I want" is the ONLY thing that is important about using resources wisely and sustainably.
 
Relatedly, the government probably shouldn't restrict your right to cry "fire" in a crowded theater either, but they do - for the common good, something you may or may not consider socialism.


This tired pony is dragged out every time someone wants to justify statism and violation of rights and freedoms. We have a COURT SYSTEM. If I yell "fire" in a crowded theater, the theater owner has every right to bar me for life (property rights, freedom of association) and to recover any damages thus caused, as have the other patrons (torts). In short, just like your economic arguments, I consider them socialist...because they are!
 
I must have missed the part of the Constitution that delegates to the Fed the power and the duty to either guarantee me or deny me a legal commodity readily available in the free market, or to set its price, or ration it - WWII, Comrade Roosevelt, and current practice notwithstanding...

Article 1, Section 8:

Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
 
..and there we have the essential flaw in your reasoning. Adam Smith, please remand this fellow for remedial counseling as to why "what I want" is the ONLY thing that is important about using resources wisely and sustainably.

If your economic thought begins and ends with Adam Smith, then you have a problem - several actually. Somehow, it would seem the Great Depression showed the lack of validity of trusting solely to market forces to guide economic outputs.
 
Hey Rich, that's what I said a million posts ago... well maybe you put it better, but anyway...


It's the MARKET stupid.


When the price of X gets too high then odd things call entrepreneurs creep in (kinda like nanobots with mortgages) and create a substitute for X at a better or similar price.

The ONLY time this doesn't happen, or doesn't happen reliably, is when the gvt is involved in supporting X.

That's why I also said, a million posts ago, that we don't need an energy policy except for the gvt to get out of the way.

And that's what the ANWR drilling thing is all about. Trying to get the tree huggers (ice huggers?) in gvt. out of the way.

There's plenty of oil and when it gets too expensive the above referenced market forces kick in.

I really did not think there would be proto-socialists, income-redistributionists and cultural engineers on THIS board.

Wrong!
Guess there are authoritarians everywhere; but how come it's for my own good in the long run?
Don't do me any favors thanks, I have a big V8 from 72 and it takes a LOT of gas to scratch my itch.


G
 
buzz_knox: you are explaining your stance in such a fashion that it sounds ridiculous. The tragedy of the commons is a well-known economic phenomenon that is demonstrably true.

NO, the "tragedy of the commons" (which if you read the article you link to was written by someone who was WRONG about how village commons were managed, so even its namesake CASE is false!) is another tired "cry fire in a theater" argument for taking liberty away from individuals and giving it to government for "your own good" because those saints that go into politics are incorruptible and no so much better than you waht is good for you. Who ever OWNED the "commons" should have CHARGED for grazing (user's fees) and LIMITED patronage (wise use, common sense). The mere fact that there WAS a free commons (and the tragedy thereof) is an example of the very socialism you are trying to use the "tragedy of the commons" to argue for. I'll explain. The "Village" (governent) has NO BUSINESS "owning" the "commons" - it should be private property! If it is, the OWNER either wisely manages it, or suffers the economic loss of mismanagement. The so-called "tragedy of the commons" is not a "community resource over-exploited" (marxism thinking), but rather a case of the taxpayers shortsightedly voting themselves unsustainable largess at the expense of everyone else, possible due to the governemntal intrusion into arreas of life it has no business - (see Social Security, crop subsidies, "corporate welfare", PBS, the National Endowment for the Arts, and the National Debt.)


Government regulation of common resources is the usual response, and is generally seen as an acceptable one. Naturally, said government regulation can (and often does) over-regulate, but that does not mean all government regulation is invalid.

Slavery and the flat earth theory used to be "acceptable" - in some parts of the world, slavery and female genital mutilation still are - doesn't make them right. If OUR government goes beyond taxing imports and exports, coining real (not fiat) money, guarding the borders, raising such military as is needed, foriegn policy, and delivering the mail, then such regulation is indeed EXCESSIVE and INVALID - the sooner we can get 51% of the vox populi to get their noses out of the trough and recognize that, the sooner we get back to paradise on earth, 9or at least as close as we have ever come...)

For example, by your logic, if someone - I'll use Bill Gates as an example, since he's probably got the funding to really start pulling something like this off - trotted down into Las Vegas, and bought all potable water, the citizens would just have to move or die of dehydration. Any government regulation to prevent a private citizen from owning all of the readily-available potable water is clearly socialism, and tramples upon your rights. Or, in this case, Bill Gates'.

Assuming the citizens of Las Vegas own their municiple water supply, they would have been incredibly stupid to have done so, in which case they deserve to move. Otherwise, I don't see any elected representative signing off on such a deal - and if he did, he would immediately be impeached/recalled, and any such acts rescinded. See, I just saved Las Vegas WITHOUT the need for any statist/socialist intervention!


Similarly, if the Chinese government were to fund an American citizen in purchasing every imported barrel of oil, our government should simply sit back and watch it happen. Anything else is socialism.

Another nonsense case - you really think that ALL the oil companies, who have to answer not only to their board of directors, shareholders, their retailers and distributers, ("I'm a GAS STATION - do you expect my customers to push their cars in here so I can check the oil?!?!") and (by the way) their CUSTOMERS to aquiesce to this? Not to mention that if China wanted to do that, they could simply buy up all the oil at the source - EXCEPT that any attempt to do so in a half-way free market would just result in prices rising until biomass, nukes, oil shale, etc replace imported oil anyway, Sorry, no sale - where did you go to school, and who filled your skull with all this Keynsian mush?



If you accept that there should be a mechanism in place for addressing those situations - as matters of national security, if nothing else

I do not. Laissez-faire uber allus.

Arguing that government should regulate nothing at all is significantly more difficult.


No it isn't - its easy! I ask what part of the U.S. Constitution delegates the federal government the power to regulate ANYTHING (you know, like the Volmstedt ammmendmant granted the authority to regulate alcohol- since repealed), and then you don't answer.
 
Mr X:
Somehow, it would seem the Great Depression showed the lack of validity of trusting solely to market forces to guide economic outputs.

Like I said a million posts ago, this Depression-era mindset is no longer relevent.
The market doesn't work that way any more and the wealth isn't owned by a few "robber barons" and foreign bankers.

Socialism doesn't get better because some early 20th Century capitalists screwed up.

And it is still you telling me what to do because you think you know better than I do.

G
 
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