Anything more damaging than a 12 gauge with buckshot?

[Uniquedot]

Flechette's in 12 ga shotguns were proven ineffective in Vietnam.

They are still ineffective in 2013.

Not true as the advances in steel shot technology has made flechette's a very effective armor piercing round. The federal law enforcement training center put out a video showing the effectiveness of these rounds and their armor piercing ability.

While buckshot is effective, it is the most over rated defensive load. It's only real advantage is being able to increase the probability of hits because of multiple projectiles. Each projectile on it's own is a poor performer.

Tell that to the Germans in WW1 as they proved so effective they threatened to put to death any Americans captured carrying them and tried to have them banned for use in warfare. I have killed game with buckshot and have personally seen it's effectiveness on human beings.

 

[LeonCarr]

I won a free lunch from a Firearms Instructor in the police academy when I put 30 holes into a 25 yard target faster and more accurately with a Remington 870 loaded with 00 Buckshot than he did with a Colt 635 9mm Submachine Gun on full auto.

Never underestimate an East Texas Redneck with a shotgun .

IMO/IME to do more damage up close than a shotgun requires something belt fed, crew served, high explosive, or nuclear.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[stressed]

I won a free lunch from a Firearms Instructor in the police academy when I put 30 holes into a 25 yard target faster and more accurately with a Remington 870 loaded with 00 Buckshot than he did with a Colt 635 9mm Submachine Gun on full auto.

Never underestimate an East Texas Redneck with a shotgun .

IMO/IME to do more damage up close than a shotgun requires something high explosive, belt fed, or crew served.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Nice shooting

Speaking Texas and Shotguns, I remember reading about Texan Confederate troops and calvary towards the end of the war refusing to surrender even after running out of lead, they would load rocks as buckshot in their coach guns and open fire on Federal troops when given chance - with deadly results.

 

[rcmodel]

Not true as the advances in steel shot technology has made flechette's a very effective armor piercing round.

Who ask about armor piercing ability??

Of course needle size Flechette's will go through a ballistic vest better then a load of buckshot.

But so will an ice pick.

But you still end up with icepick wounds that won't bleed out rapidly and = quick stops.

rc

 

[LeonCarr]

LTC William B. Travis used a double barreled flintlock shotgun at The Alamo.

Texans like their shotguns.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[rcmodel]

But he only got off two shots.

Then they killed him with sixteen bayonets!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist!!

rc

 

[119er]

rcmodel:

Flechette's in 12 ga shotguns were proven ineffective in Vietnam.

They are still ineffective in 2013.

They were very effective in Vietnam when fired out of a 105mm or 155mm cannon where you can get a screaming steel cloud of them in one shot.

But that ain't no shotgun.

APERS-T! (Anti-personnel - tracer) I was a 105mm crew member on the M119. We fired some APERS-T at targets while on deployment, but never at actual enemy.

There is a direct fire sight(essentially a rifle scope) on the M119 and a time fuse chart on the trail to set time. The round itself is aluminum rather than steel and filled with flechettes. The fuse pops it at the distance specified by the fuse chart and a black swarm of flechettes spreads all over the area. A smoke canister drops from the base to mark the actual point of detonation and a red tracer flies from the front at detonation to confirm trajectory. The spread is pretty wide, that round has some rpm to it to sling those things out! I certainly wouldn't want to be in front of it.

The effect of this round on personnel as I remember it was to saturate the enemy with many small wounds that can't be tended quickly by medics. If you have 50 holes in your body bleeding at one time, you'll have a hard time stopping all that bleeding before you bleed out. Of course the rate at which that happens depends on where the went through. Imagine being a medic trying to help 5 or 6 people in this condition. A true death of a thousand cuts.

I always liked the direct fire with HE(high explosive/comp. B) shells better! Much more entertaining. We had a crazy 1SG that had us fire some set to muzzle action! IIRC a fuse had to make 10 revolutions to arm. This made sure the shell was clear of the gun before it activated and supposedly prevented a round from going off in the tube. Muzzle action basically detonates the shell at the minimum point. 12 revs. IIRC. Anyway, CLOSE! We blew up the hesco's in front of our position!

OP, sorry for the thread jack

So, right on RC. Got a howitzer? GTG. Shotgun? Not so much!

 

[stressed]

Killer junior

 

[LeonCarr]

Its ok rc...we got our revenge at San Jacinto .

To stay on topic kinda...wasn't there a case of a firebase under siege during The Vietnam War where they had exhausted all of their artillery ammo except two then experimental "Beehive" rounds loaded with flechettes, they shot them at the enemy, and ended the siege?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[allaroundhunter]

The biggest advantage of the 12ga over the large bore rifles is the forgiving spread. Movement, bad lighting, sleepy eyes, surprise, and adrenaline all can screw up your perfect form and aim that you demonstate at the range on a bright sunny day in a relaxed environment. Close does count with horse shoes, hand grenades, and shotguns.

Have you ever patterned a 12 ga with buckshot at HD ranges?... You're lucky if you get a full 7" of spread. "Close" doesn't cut it if you are off the target, regardless of what gun you are using. Using the thought that you can "miss and still hit" as an excuse sets you up for failure.


That being said, a 12 ga is a very good defensive weapon. I keep mine loaded with #4 buckshot.

 

[119er]

Have you ever patterned a 12 ga with buckshot at HD ranges?... You're lucky if you get a full 7" of spread.

Right on. That "spread" effect is the one of the most annoying shotgun myths out there. Second only to racking the action to "scare" your adversary. I put new shooters on paper at about 10 yards and let them see for themselves. Then compare that to the longest shot within their home. Usually gets the point across.

Hornady's TAP patterns really well out of my guns too and has got some punch to it. The Fiocchi Low recoil is nice too.

 

[eldon519]

Agreed allaroundhunter. Really you shouldn't rely on one shot anyhow. You'd probably do best with something like an AR15 and count on multiple accurate hits until the threat is incapacitated.

 

[JohnKSa]

I won a free lunch from a Firearms Instructor in the police academy when I put 30 holes into a 25 yard target faster and more accurately with a Remington 870 loaded with 00 Buckshot than he did with a Colt 635 9mm Submachine Gun on full auto.

Makes sense. I remember reading somewhere, years ago, that unless the person with the subgun was well-trained, a person with a shotgun was more effective, in general.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I have a big 10 ga single shot it is far less punishing to shoot than the 12 ga pumps shooting 3 1/2 in loads I have shot And who ever decided a 5 lb single shot that will chamber 3 1/2 shells was a good idea ought to be drawn and quartered
Roy

It's probably the same person who thought a pistol grip shotgun was a good idea.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I would have to say a submachine gun, like an MP40 would be "slightly" more damaging than a 12 gauge, but not much. I say this after seeing one used at an indoor range once.

Getting shot by a 12 gauge 3/4 00 buck is like getting shot by 9 .32ACP chambered handguns at once if I'm not mistaken. A 9mm subgun would be more damaging with a burst than a single shot from a regular shotgun.

 

[MattShlock]

Essentially no, except a 12 ga. with the right buckshot, meaning #0 or #1. Could go 3" Magnum on those too or even #00 buck if that's all that's left behind the counter or on the shelves.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Sub gun = 30 rounds 9mm.
Shotgun = 6 rounds of 00 buck. At a minimum, the shotgun yields 54 projectiles.

Shotgun in the hands of someone with even mediocre training is lethal.

Are there other weapons just as good, slightly worse or slightly better? Yes. But the 12 gauge with 00 buck is pretty formidable.

 

[plumberroy]

I realistic terms there may be more damaging loads . But they are more costly, possibility of more colaterial damage need more training lets face it dead is dead buckshot at H.D ranges is a fight stopper guns to fire it are reasonalbly affordable and take less training to be effective

 

[stressed]

Upgrade it to 000 buck, and even 0000 buck and your caliber size goes up, with FPS going down.

 

[stressed]

I can see why you think this.

A burst from a subgun with bonded or copper hollowpoints +P+ or hot equivalent through it's longer barrel is probably pretty devastating, especially with a very high rate of fire to nearly dump the mag perforating the person on the other end before you are off target.

Imagine the barrel in the video below being the BG, with some hot hollowpoints loaded instead. I'm not sure if there is anything on this earth that would survive that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O38a_Bx18RU

 

[JohnKSa]

I just remembered reading something else years ago. The author of the piece had noted that the overall effect of a shotgun blast seemed out of proportion with the "sum of the damage".

In other words, when comparing a shotgun blast victim with another shooting victim where the projectile impacts were similar in number and size, it seemed to the author that the shotgun victim seemed to react more strongly to the shotgun blast. His theory was that the multiple simultaneous impacts resulted in more trauma to the victim's system than the same number of similarly damaging impacts which were spread out over time.

To be fair, the comparison was between persons shot with shotgun blasts and persons shot multiple times with conventional weapons, not full-auto weapons. Even assuming that the author's speculation was on target, I have no idea whether or not the impacts from a full-auto burst occur close enough together to create the same effect.

One other thing to take into account is that it's generally easier to get hits with a shotgun than a subgun. I'm not talking about the shot spread, I'm talking about the fact that holding a subgun on target for anything longer than just a short burst tends to be more difficult than scoring a solid hit with a shotgun.

 

[stressed]

John, watch the video above. Pretty much no recoil. That's whats nice about subguns.

Now if a guy wants to combine weapons... a drum fed full auto shortbarrel Siaga 12 spitting 3" 15 pellet plated and buffered 00 as fast as it can cycle would be, well, devastation.

From a 20 round drum that would be 300 .32 caliber balls in a few seconds. There is also 18 pellet 3" by some vendors - 360 .32 balls on target.

Running 1 or 4 buck in 3" would just turn your target into minced meat after 20 rounds in rapid succession.

 

[JohnKSa]

There are probably some subguns that recoil less than the one in the video, there are certainly others that recoil more. That's why I intentionally used the words: "generally" and "tends".

 

[Uniquedot]

Who ask about armor piercing ability??

Of course needle size Flechette's will go through a ballistic vest better then a load of buckshot.

But so will an ice pick.

But you still end up with icepick wounds that won't bleed out rapidly and = quick stops.

The piercing ability applies to it's effectiveness. As far as it piercing better than buckshot there is no comparison as buckshot will not penetrate unless the armor is defective. The last advancements I saw on vests proved that an ice pick wouldn't penetrate it, but then again that armor may have been developed after the studies by the FLTC and flechette's may not penetrate that armor either. In any case an ice pick, a flechette, or a lead ball in the heart equals a dead mammal either way and that's easily understood. I however would not use anything other than buckshot and slugs in my HD guns as I've only ever heard of one criminal entering a home wearing body armor and he was laid to rest with a 30-30 round to the face. Besides even though the fletchette's proved to penetrate body armor it probably couldn't make it to the vitals afterward which is what I'm assuming you were referring.

 

[tactikel]

The Thompson M28 .45 was considered the "most destructive hand held weapon in the world" a while back..
For Bear defense use slugs, bad guys buckshot, plinking a 10/22.