AOW questions

[Gordon]

MACHVshooter just answered me that the Ithaca 87 20 Ga. Stake out that I purchased years ago from LVPD , WITHOUT THE 13" BARREL as a "firearm", must go thru the entire ATF process to put a 13" barrel on it with the Hand Grip it came with. After I bought it I put on a 20" Deer slayer Barrel and a nice 13" walnut stock with a pad and gave it to a daughter. She hasn't really used it , so I told her I would give her my prettier factory Ithaca 37 Featherlight 20 25" vent rib barrel for the parkerized 87 Deer Slayer , which shows better and probably fetch more $ if she ever went to sell it. And she said yes and traded.
Now I have the Stake Out back , which HAS the HG suffix after the serial number which shows it was manufactured as an AOW handgun. I found the original grip and the black wood foreend still has the nylon web strap and swivels . Now if I put a 13.5" original "Stake out" barrel on it I would have to fill out the AOW form , fingerprint card and $5 check to ATF. Do they take e file for that and is it real quick ? Do I still have to bring it to a Class 3 dealer and pay their fee ?
The second question is : I just won a Ithaca FACTORY 24" 20 ga. Model 87 Deer Slayer FULLY RIFLED barrel for it very reasonably . If I was to cut back that FULLY rifled barrel to 13.5" (and remount the Raybar front sight) would that make the gun exempt from the AOW law as it was manufactured as a Hand Gun AND as I read the law IF the barrel is rifled then it is exempt even under 26" overall . I would especially appreciate Dogtown Tom to give me his opinion , but I want any other informed source . Thank you . Otherwise I'll just keep an 18" or longer barrel on it to keep overall length to 26"+ which is legal I am sure.

www.atf.gov. ATF. Retrieved 2011-03-29. For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term "Any Other Weapon" means: * Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive; * A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell; * Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and * Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.
!!!! Such term shall NOT include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore !!!!
, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

 

[dogtown tom]

MACHVshooter just answered me that the Ithaca 87 20 Ga. Stake out that I purchased years ago from LVPD , WITHOUT THE 13" BARREL as a "firearm", must go thru the entire ATF process to put a 13" barrel on it with the Hand Grip it came with. After I bought it I put on a 20" Deer slayer Barrel and a nice 13" walnut stock with a pad and gave it to a daughter. She hasn't really used it , so I told her I would give her my prettier factory Ithaca 37 Featherlight 20 25" vent rib barrel for the parkerized 87 Deer Slayer , which shows better and probably fetch more $ if she ever went to sell it. And she said yes and traded.
Now I have the Stake Out back , which HAS the HG suffix after the serial number which shows it was manufactured as an AOW handgun. I found the original grip and the black wood foreend still has the nylon web strap and swivels . Now if I put a 13.5" original "Stake out" barrel on it I would have to fill out the AOW form , fingerprint card and $5 check to ATF. Do they take e file for that and is it real quick ? Do I still have to bring it to a Class 3 dealer and pay their fee ?

First, there is no such animal as an "AOW handgun".......it's just AOW.
When you bought the firearm, it was a receiver. Transfers as "Other firearm" on the Form 4473.
It can't be made onto an AOW because it would be a firearm made from a shotgun, requiring registration as a Short Barreled Shotgun.
Once you attached the shoulder stock and 20"bbl you made a Title I shotgun. If you reconfigure with 13"bbl and a pistol grip you've made a Short Barreled Shotgun, not an AOW.
While Form 4 transfers of AOW's are a $5 tax stamp, making one via a Form 1 is a $200 tax stamp.
You can efile a Form 1.

"Class 3 dealer" is something that doesn't exist. To deal in NFA firearms, an 01FFL (Dealer) pays a yearly Special Occupational Tax, class 3........thats where the confusion began decades ago. To deal in or manufacture an NFA firearm, an 07FFL (Manufacturer) also pays a yearly SOT, but theirs is class 2.

Since you are the "maker" of the NFA firearm, an FFL has no involvement whatsoever. YOU, as the maker, not manufacturer, files a Form 1 prior to making, not manufacturing, the new SBS. Wgen ATF approves your Form 1 and emails you a .pdf of your tax stamp.......THEN you can make your SBS. You are also required as the maker of an NFA firearm to engrave the makers name, city and state on the frame, receiver or barrel.

The second question is : I just won a Ithaca FACTORY 24" 20 ga. Model 87 Deer Slayer FULLY RIFLED barrel for it very reasonably . If I was to cut back that FULLY rifled barrel to 13.5" (and remount the Raybar front sight) would that make the gun exempt from the AOW law as it was manufactured as a Hand Gun AND as I read the law IF the barrel is rifled then it is exempt even under 26" overall . I would especially appreciate Dogtown Tom to give me his opinion , but I want any other informed source . Thank you . Otherwise I'll just keep an 18" or longer barrel on it to keep overall length to 26"+ which is legal I am sure.

It can never be an AOW because it was originally a shotgun.
It was never a handgun either.

 

[Gordon]

OK , thank you . Just to clarify I bought one of these with the suffix HG which was manufactured like the picture from a PD auction minus the barrel and yes it transferred on a 4473 as "firearm" .



And I guess the "rifled barrel " exemption I quoted in the law would have no meaning to this former AOW ?? So the sentence about rifled barreled hand guns being exempt in the ATF statement on AOL does not apply to this even if HG means "Hand Gun" ?

if such is the case I will cut the barrel I bought back to 18" which makes it 26+ inches and call it good as I don't think that would be nonlegal .
But Ithink you are telling me that I could never make this manufactured AOL into an AOW on a form 1 ? Sorry for my confusion. 5" of less barrel would not be worth $200 to me , $5 Might !

 

[12Bravo20]

Some confusion might be coming from the fact that if it left the manufacturer with a pistol grip only AND a shoulder stock was not nor will ever be installed then it can fall into the classification as a "firearm" with an 18/5" barrel. I will have to look at how Mossberg did things with the Model 500 Persuader guns that only shipped from the factory with a pistol grip and 18.5" barrel. Others with more knowledge can add more information on this.

if such is the case I will cut the barrel I bought back to 18" which makes it 26+ inches and call it good as I don't think that would be nonlegal .

That would be your best solution especially if it ever had a shoulder stock installed on it or shipped from the factory as a SBS.

 

[Gordon]

It shipped from factory as an AOW with a pistol grip and a 13.5" barrel .
The Receiver with out a short barrel was transferred to me on a 4473 as a "firearm" it went from Nevada into California that way and was registered as a "firearm" to me.
What I did with it may be a story it could have set in my safe as I bought it with pistol grip and no barrel.
If I wanted to register it with ATF as an AOW and get a $5 stamp how would I do that ?
Would I have to surrender the receiver to a license holder who could do such transfers , whatever they are called ?
Can I E file for an AOW and pay a $5 fee for a stamp and then cut down a factory barrel to make such an AOW ? Or submit paperwork to do the same ?
Does using a fully rifled factory barrel come into the equation if I use one ?
ATF states :" The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a PISTOL or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall NOT include a PISTOL or a revolver having a RIFLED bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

There is no doubt the weapon in question left the factory designed as a PISTOL with it's hand grip only and No provision to attach a Shoulder stock to that .
Adding a rifled barrel to me seems to exempt it from being an AOW requirement and actually creates a 20 gauge PISTOL being it was sold as a "Firearm" on a 4473 .
Please correct me where I am wrong some one .
Finally if I am in error then shortening that rifled barrel to only 18+" is what I am going to do leaving me with the factory pistol grip with an overall length of 27-28" which hand grip shot guns have and are being sold over the counter with 18" barrels and longer than 27" overall for decades as title 1 weapons so I THINK that is legal - please prove me wrong !
Seriously I 'll call an Agent friend if I have to, but of course if not on paper it won't be considered law . The Agent is not a tech guy either.

 

[12Bravo20]

It shipped from factory as an AOW with a pistol grip and a 13.5" barrel .
The Receiver with out a short barrel was transferred to me on a 4473 as a "firearm" it went from Nevada into California that way and was registered as a "firearm" to me.

Maybe you should see if it is still registered with the ATF as an AOW or if someone had it removed from the NFA register. Pistol Grip Only need to have an 18.5" barrel in order to keep it from being a NFA item. The Shockwave and similar get away with having a shorter barrel due to the bird head grip, but you are pretty much stuck with the bird head grip if you want to keep the 14" barrel without registering it as a NFA item.

I'll let others that deal with AOW and SBS more often and are familiar with California laws give better answers on what you can do with it. Personally , if it was me, I would ditch the pistol grip for a bird head grip and get a 14" barrel to keep it over 26" OAL if that is allowed in your state.

 

[dogtown tom]

Some confusion might be coming from the fact that if it left the manufacturer with a pistol grip only AND a shoulder stock was not nor will ever be installed then it can fall into the classification as a "firearm" with an 18/5" barrel.

At this point how gun#1 left the factory doesn't matter, as it was subsequently assembled onto a Title I shotgun.

If LVPD sold the OP an AOW with the barrel removed, I would be interested in knowing whether that removes the AOW from the NFA. While SBR's and SBS's are only SBR's and SBS's when configured as an SBR or SBS. Barrel length and OAL matter.

But........no such "configuration" determination exists for AOW's as far as I can find.

I will have to look at how Mossberg did things with the Model 500 Persuader guns that only shipped from the factory with a pistol grip and 18.5" barrel. Others with more knowledge can add more information on this.

Title I firearms with a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell are transferred as "other firearms". To be a Title I "firearm" it must not meet the definition of handgun/rifle/shotgun in Title I nor the definition of SBS/SBR/AOW etc in Title II.

Those Mossberg "Persuaders" that shipped with only a pistol grip and 18"bbl are not shotguns, but a "firearm that expels a shotgun shell". That's because the definition of "shotgun" includes a shoulder stock. If the firearm was sold with both pistol grip and a shoulder stock, its a shotgun. That's because ATF considers a firearm shipped in knockdown condition (disassembled) as a complete firearm.

That would be your best solution especially if it ever had a shoulder stock installed on it or shipped from the factory as a SBS.

If shipped from the factory as an SBS, it can be reconfigured as an SBS on a Form 1, but cannot be made into an AOW.

 

[dogtown tom]

It shipped from factory as an AOW with a pistol grip and a 13.5" barrel .
The Receiver with out a short barrel was transferred to me on a 4473 as a "firearm" it went from Nevada into California that way and was registered as a "firearm" to me.
What I did with it may be a story it could have set in my safe as I bought it with pistol grip and no barrel.
If I wanted to register it with ATF as an AOW and get a $5 stamp how would I do that ?

Again.....YOU CANNOT. It was subsequently reassembled as a shotgun. You cannot make an AOW from a shotgun.

Would I have to surrender the receiver to a license holder who could do such transfers , whatever they are called ?

You can surrender to anyone you want, but that firearm is a shotgun and can be made into an SBS. That SBS can look EXACTLY LIKE the original AOW.

Can I E file for an AOW and pay a $5 fee for a stamp and then cut down a factory barrel to make such an AOW ?

Again, I explained above why you cannot do that. "Making" an NFA firearm is a $200 tax. If you had bought an AOW it would have transferred on a Form 4 with a $5 tax. But you aren't being transferred an AOW.

Or submit paperwork to do the same ?

Paper or efile doesn't change anything.

Does using a fully rifled factory barrel come into the equation if I use one ?

It could.......you could be making a Destructive Device if not careful.

ATF states :" The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a PISTOL or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall NOT include a PISTOL or a revolver having a RIFLED bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

There is no doubt the weapon in question left the factory designed as a PISTOL with it's hand grip only and No provision to attach a Shoulder stock to that .

There is no doubt that you are 100% wrong.
It left the factory as an AOW (smooth bore pistol), not a Title I pistol.
If there was o provision to attach a shoulder stock.......how did you do so?

Adding a rifled barrel to me seems to exempt it from being an AOW requirement and actually creates a 20 gauge PISTOL being it was sold as a "Firearm" on a 4473 .

It ceased being an AOW the minute you attached that shoulder stock and made a Title I shotgun.
Removing that shoulder stock, adding a bbl of less than 18" and a pistol grip doesn't create a pistol, but a Short Barreled Shotgun. Thats because it's a firearm made from a shotgun.

Please correct me where I am wrong some one .

I'm trying as best I can.

Finally if I am in error then shortening that rifled barrel to only 18+" is what I am going to do leaving me with the factory pistol grip with an overall length of 27-28" which hand grip shot guns have and are being sold over the counter with 18" barrels and longer than 27" overall for decades as title 1 weapons so I THINK that is legal - please prove me wrong !

It is legal. Again, Title I firearms with a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell are transferred as "other firearms". To be a Title I "firearm" it must not meet the definition of handgun/rifle/shotgun in Title I nor the definition of SBS/SBR/AOW etc in Title II.

Those Mossberg "Persuaders" that shipped with only a pistol grip and 18"bbl are not shotguns, but a "firearm that expels a shotgun shell". That's because the definition of "shotgun" includes a shoulder stock. If the firearm was sold with both pistol grip and a shoulder stock, its a shotgun. That's because ATF considers a firearm shipped in knockdown condition (disassembled) as a complete firearm.

Seriously I 'll call an Agent friend if I have to, but of course if not on paper it won't be considered law . The Agent is not a tech guy either.

Verbal opinions from anyone at ATF are worthless.

 

[Gordon]

Thank you Tom, You answered my questions with this :
"It is legal. Again, Title I firearms with a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell are transferred as "other firearms". To be a Title I "firearm" it must not meet the definition of handgun/rifle/shotgun in Title I nor the definition of SBS/SBR/AOW etc in Title II.
Those Mossberg "Persuaders" that shipped with only a pistol grip and 18"bbl are not shotguns, but a "firearm that expels a shotgun shell". That's because the definition of "shotgun" includes a shoulder stock. If the firearm was sold with both pistol grip and a shoulder stock, its a shotgun. That's because ATF considers a firearm shipped in knockdown condition (disassembled) as a complete firearm. "


And you clarified that If my original purchase was transferred as a Form 4 AOW it would still be an AOW. Unfortunetly I could not into California where I was a resident at the time.

And finally as I read it the law for large bore destructive devices pertains to shoulder fired weapons firing fixed ammo not shot shells . Otherwise the Big .577 pistols would be destructive devices and Rifled Shotguns are also exempt as they are shotguns .
I will cut my rifled barrel to 18.5" and call my Ithaca with a hand grip good to go. I want it to fit in a travel trailer bedside cabinet. I think the rifling should spread #3 buckshot well the cabinet is 28" long.

 

[dogtown tom]

....And finally as I read it the law for large bore destructive devices pertains to shoulder fired weapons firing fixed ammo not shot shells .......

Where did you read that DD must be shoulder fired?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

(f)Destructive device
The term “destructive device” means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 7684(2), 7685, or 7686 of title 10, United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

Remember the "Street Sweeper"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armsel_Striker
A 12 gauge shotgun deemed "not sporting" by the Attorney General.

Otherwise the Big .577 pistols would be destructive devices

If you have a .577 pistol or revolver it darn well better be an antique or a percussion black powder firearm. There's a reason modern reproductions of "Howdah" style pistols and revolvers are only in .45 Colt/.410.

For some reason Taurus withdrew its 28 gauge Judge from display at Shot Show back in 2011.

 

[Gordon]

If you have a .577 pistol or revolver it darn well better be an antique or a percussion black powder firearm.

There's a reason Taurus withdrew its 28 gauge Judge from display at Shot Show back in 2011.

UH oh ! , well the barrel on the Ithaca will be over 18" and the overall length 28" so I should be ok as rifled shotguns are quite the rage back East and after all as you said this IS a shotgun not a AOW and as such to shorten the barrel I'd have to SBS it. Thanks again

 

[12Bravo20]

The reason that the Mossberg Persuader with pistol grip and the Mossberg Shockwave are both legal and classified as a Title 1 "firearm" is the fact that they never had a shoulder stock attached AND are over 26" in overall length.

And Dogtown Tom is 100% correct, once you install a shoulder stock then it becomes a shotgun and must stay a shogun no matter if it is a title 1 with at least an 18" barrel or if registered as a SBS.

@dogtown tom thank you for adding further information. It has been a while since I have messed with NFA stuff (mostly while in the Army)

 

[Gordon]

me doing to that Ithaca while I have owed it is mere hearsay and has the same weight as : "Verbal opinions from anyone at ATF are worthless."

 

[dogtown tom]

me doing to that Ithaca while I have owed it is mere hearsay and has the same weight as : "Verbal opinions from anyone at ATF are worthless."

If you wrote it, it isn't hearsay.

 

[Bcwitt]

I dont really understand why it matters what it originally was (AOW,pistol, whatever)If you are filling out the paper & paying the tax, why do they care??

 

[Bcwitt]

The reason that the Mossberg Persuader with pistol grip and the Mossberg Shockwave are both legal and classified as a Title 1 "firearm" is the fact that they never had a shoulder stock attached AND are over 26" in overall length.

And Dogtown Tom is 100% correct, once you install a shoulder stock then it becomes a shotgun and must stay a shogun no matter if it is a title 1 with at least an 18" barrel or if registered as a SBS.

@dogtown tom thank you for adding further information. It has been a while since I have messed with NFA stuff (mostly while in the Army)

Wait, so if I have an 18"+ length shotgun w a pistol grip & I put a full stock on, I may not return to the pistol grip?

 

[dogtown tom]

I dont really understand why it matters what it originally was (AOW,pistol, whatever)If you are filling out the paper & paying the tax, why do they care??

"Why it matters?" You are either compliant with federal law and ATF regulations or you aren't.
Get caught being in violation means you'll never own or possess a firearm again.
That's why it matters.

 

[dogtown tom]

Wait, so if I have an 18"+ length shotgun w a pistol grip & I put a full stock on, I may not return to the pistol grip?

That's not what he wrote.
Both Remington and Mossberg sold Title I shotguns with both a shoulder stock and pistol grip in the box.

 

[Gordon]

I kept the Barrel both 25" , I keep the Pistol grip on the smooth bore with a Red dot and light and green lazer and it is dandy around the trailer poking around for noises ect. it is 33" overall and the extra 7" of barrel makes it fun to shoot and quieter and it has that Deer Slayer tight cylinder boring . The other rare rifled barrel is now scoped and exchanges in a minute and the hangrip for a stock another couple minutes for serious deer/blackbear hunting with sabot loads . Weird but all legal and probably more effective and quieter. I have other 18+" barrel shotguns and am over the sawed off fever , of course if I could have dropped the ATF a line and Paper work and $5 it would be different. Thanks Tom.

 

[12Bravo20]

That's not what he wrote.
Both Remington and Mossberg sold Title I shotguns with both a shoulder stock and pistol grip in the box.

Correct, the Mossberg Persuader ws designed to use a shoulder stock or pistol grip from the factory and usually shipped with both. Plus the fact that the barrel is over 18" long which also meets the ATF definition of a shotgun.

 

[dogtown tom]

..... of course if I could have dropped the ATF a line and Paper work and $5 it would be different. Thanks Tom.
........

AOW's are $5 to transfer, but making one is the same as any other NFA firearm.....$200.

 

[Gordon]

AOW's are $5 to transfer, but making one is the same as any other NFA firearm.....$200.

I get it now, thanks. When I bought it without the barrel I did not get that option , was transferred as Other Firearm thru my FFL .

 

[dogtown tom]

I get it now, thanks. When I bought it without the barrel I did not get that option , was transferred as Other Firearm thru my FFL .

Do not confuse Title I "firearms" (frames, receivers, firearms with a pistol grip that expel shotgun shells)....basically firearms that do not meet the definition of rifle/shotgun/pistol/revolver.
with
Title II NFA firearms "Any Other Weapon" (NFA firearms that are not MG's, SBR, SBS, silencers or DD's)

Both are transferred on a Form 4473 as "Other firearm" checked on Question 24.

 

[Gordon]

I see !