Apartment interior self-defense load for .38 Spl suggestions

Neo-Luddite

Neo-Luddite

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Our daughter will be moving with her boyfriend to Indianapolis for grad school and will be residing in an apartment complex that was remodeled from a building that had been a two-story motel as first built. They have leased a corner unit on the second floor. Her usual carry pistol is a Ruger LC9s which she shoots well. Her boyfriend shoots but does not have a pistol of his own for now. Last night she brought up the topic of what gun(s) she should take along for dedicated self-defense in the apartment and I told her I'd recommend taking one of our S&W 4" DAO 64s in .38 spl as they can be relied upon to fire most any loading and that some thought must be given to avoiding over penetrating of the walls with missed shots. I started doing some reading up on current commercial loadings that might be suitable last night and then had the thought that I might do better putting the question to the members here....any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! - Mike (aka Neo-Luddite)
 
At the low velocities of most .38 Special ammo, I think it's probably a non-issue. Even heavy 158-grain.

If I was super worried about overpenetration even over terminal performance, just get some reliable ball ammo and you're done. [EDIT: A lot of it runs about 130 grains or so at very modest velocity.]


I think a lot of people who are not big on +P in the gun turn to Hornady Critical Defense 110-grain. If these are still around, they should be mild shooting and low on wall penetration.
 
Theres not a magic bullet that will be effective for self defense which won't also easily perforate 4 or more layers of drywall. It just doesn't jive with physics.

The best you could probably do is select either a light bullet at medium velocity which will shed its penetrating power quickly, or a heavy but very slow and if possible very blunt bullet like a 148gr HBWC at target velocity. I would opt for the latter, but if you want the former I've tested the Critical Defense lite load which is a 95gr FTX @900-1000FPS. This basically gives you the same performance as the best you could expect out of a small .380 like an LCP.
 
These Federal Micros are made for short barrels but work equally well for 4". Check out Lucky Gunner ballistic results. Out of 2" : 13+ inches penetration & 100% expansion on all 5 rounds tested with .73" expansion if my memory serves me. This is 130gr +P. No idea if it would go through an apartment wall. 20240620_102308.jpg
 

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A handgun bullet will penetrate several interior walls.

If limited wall penetration is necessary then a shotgun loaded with birdshot is the only choice. Load it so birdshot is the first one or two rounds to be fired, followed by at least #4 buckshot in case the birdshot fails to stop the aggressor(s).
 
Full charge wadcutters have become my go-to for snub guns; it's basically the old 158 RNL load, with a double ended wadcutter. They achieve the same velocity as that old load, but the blunt end should discourage overpenetration, and still be more effective for defense.
If you're not a reloader (I generally prefer to carry factory, but have been too lazy to order) Georgia Arms will sell you some. They're designed for snubs,, but should serve well in a 4" too.
Moon
 
As @RevolvingGarbage notes, there ain't no such thing. If it's going to work on people, it's almost certainly going to penetrate multiple layers of sheetrock. Or, put another way, if it doesn't penetrate multiple layers of sheetrock, it's probably not going to be effective in flesh.

My thinking is that if I absolutely had to ensure limited penetration, I would buy or make something like the old Glaser Safety Slugs, and just live with the idea that they may not stop an attacker. (I'd also want the biggest payload possible, preferably out of something like a 12 gauge.)

Otherwise, I would simply find the load/bullet used by local law enforcement agencies and call it good, bearing in mind that discharging the gun inside is putting my neighbors at risk.

And without meaning to call anyone out, "ball" - or any solid roundnose stuff - is possibly the very worst choice here. It not only out-penetrates nearly everything else, it also is amazingly ineffective in flesh. It is just about the last thing I would pick for apartment defense.
 
Hey - no offense taken, and that's why we have these discussions.

I guess it depends on if you view the glass as half-empty or half-full.
Best - or worst - of both worlds.
At least this side of a 12 gauge with shot, which wasn't on the table per the OP.


At least if you are buying off the shelf, and looking for readily available.
Mild wadcutters can be hard to find.
Most defense ammo has a little more velocity to it.
Of course reloaders can tailor things to their liking...
 
Shawn Dodson said:
A handgun bullet will penetrate several interior walls.

If limited wall penetration is necessary then a shotgun loaded with birdshot is the only choice. Load it so birdshot is the first one or two rounds to be fired, followed by at least #4 buckshot in case the birdshot fails to stop the aggressor(s).
Click to expand...
I'd had this thought as well. But my daughter is pretty small and doesn't like dealing with shotguns and as a result has very little experience with them. We may have to revisit the idea before she moves.
 
Neo-Luddite said:
But my daughter is pretty small and doesn't like dealing with shotguns
Click to expand...
There's also the issue of storing and securing a longarm.
Stick with something mild-recoiling, to let her have confidence, and be able to hit what she's aiming at. There will be no perfect answer, so something accurate and controllable should help shot placement. A 64 is a dandy revo.
Moon
 
You stated that the LC9S was her favorite carry pistol. I assume that indicates that she shoots it well and practices with it.

If that's the case, that is the one that she needs to take with her for apartment defense. Load up with a good high quality 124gn hollow point and call it good.

If that is the one she is the most comfortable with and shoots the best with, then misses will be minimized over learning a new platform.

As has been said, anything that can reliably stop a man it going to punch through several layers of sheetrock.

Harden the apartment as best as possible. Avoid inviting reckless people home. Practice regularly with she is most proficient with.

Minimize the risk of having to use it and minimize the proability of missing the shot. That's about the best anyone can do.
 
The OP has probably already seen this, but it still is worth posting.


The literal bottom line: "There is not a firearm cartridge that will stop an impending, unavoidable threat of death or great bodily harm that will not also penetrate multiple layers of standard building materials. This is the reality in which we have to operate."

I agree perfectly, and I while I applaud the thoughtfulness of the posts here, I guess I'm just going to default to "Use the load/bullet carried by local law enforcement and call it good".
 
Neo-Luddite said:
I'd had this thought as well. But my daughter is pretty small and doesn't like dealing with shotguns and as a result has very little experience with them. We may have to revisit the idea before she moves.
Click to expand...
A .410 shotgun is isn't bad.

A .410 Rossi Circuit Judge is a 5-shot 18" revolver shotgun (no short stroking or need to learn how to clear stoppages). I got one for my wife. It's loaded with Federal Personal Defense .410 Handgun with 000 buckshot.
 
A slow heavy bullet will penetrate further than a fast heavy bullet of the same weight. Reason being that upon impact, most of the energy will be dumped before puncturing the flesh. Lighter hollow points at faster velocities will work best.

In reality, in a life and death situation how many of us will be concerned about pass through penetration of the walls at that moment. Even if children are in your household, we do think about it during idle times, but at the moment it is happening you will be reacting and not thinking where the bullet is going, instead you will be thinking of stopping an intruder from harming your loved ones.

The element of surprise is the most effective tool that can save one's life. In this case I would recommend that your daughter seriously consider self defense classes like boxing, kick boxing or martial arts. Intruders won't think that a small diminutive can kick their butts. This along with firearms training will provide a well rounded package for protecting her self.
 
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RevolvingGarbage said:
There's not a magic bullet that will be effective for self defense which won't also easily perforate 4 or more layers of drywall. It just doesn't jive with physics.
Click to expand...
^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^
Don't kid yourself otherwise
www.thetruthaboutguns.com

Sheetrock Penetration Testing, Take 1 - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ There are a lot of strong opinions out there when it comes to home defense firearms. Nick’s Self Defense Tip; Don’t Use a Rifle caused some of the best discussion I’ve seen on the subject in a while, and it got me thinking on the subject as well. It seems to […]
www.thetruthaboutguns.com www.thetruthaboutguns.com
 
Hornady critical defense 110 gr std pressure.

People are saying don't go with lead round nose. I've witnessed one of these rounds fired indoors from a 3 inch barrel revolver. It flattened against an oak TV stand and barely left a mark. The round itself looked like a flat quarter.

I think it would definitely hurt to take one of those. If it hits something solid, I don't think it'll keep on going. I think the soft lead of the lrn will flatten and stop.

Also seen a 125 grain 38+p fired indoors. Nothing stopped that, went through pressure treated wood. Never did flatten. Remington or Winchester, not sure.
 
Maybe Hornady Critical Defense Lite? The 90 gr projectile used expands pretty well, though penetration is not extremely deep in gel testing.

I think this load could be used in the SD role in an apartment setting like you describe. But, like any reasonably effective handgun load they will shoot through bare drywall, so (as usual) shot placement is key.

Stay safe.
 
.38 Special said:
The OP has probably already seen this, but it still is worth posting.


The literal bottom line: "There is not a firearm cartridge that will stop an impending, unavoidable threat of death or great bodily harm that will not also penetrate multiple layers of standard building materials. This is the reality in which we have to operate."

I agree perfectly, and I while I applaud the thoughtfulness of the posts here, I guess I'm just going to default to "Use the load/bullet carried by local law enforcement and call it good".
Click to expand...
I looked at the test methodology and was not impressed. For starters many apartments have 5/8 " drywall, and the next walls are 8-16 feet apart. That distance apart is sufficient to slow down possibly tumbling bullets enough to shorten the total penetration by half.
 
stonebuster said:
These Federal Micros are made for short barrels but work equally well for 4". Check out Lucky Gunner ballistic results. Out of 2" : 13+ inches penetration & 100% expansion on all 5 rounds tested with .73" expansion if my memory serves me. This is 130gr +P. No idea if it would go through an apartment wall. View attachment 1215351
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the Federal 130gr HST 38Spl+P round has been discontinued by Federal. It's very unfortunate, this was my go to carry round in my 38. I have 1 box left, then I'll need to find a new carry round.

My understanding is they didn't sell well... since most people don't do research to know how great the ballistics are on this round, many just saw a strange looking flush JHP and passed on the purchase in favor of a more traditional looking round. Also, they are potentially slower with a speedloader.
 
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Any reliable FMJ 9MM or 38 special will be fine. A shotgun will be too big, clumsy, and slow for an apartment IMHO. It's going to be Hardee to get to vs a handgun in or on a nightstand. It's also going to have more recoil, less capacity, and slower reloads than a handgun. Then in a lot of non rural areas, there aren’t make indoor or outdoor ranges that allow shotguns.

A handgun chambered in 9mm, 45acp, or 38 special is what I reckon the overwhelming majority of gun owners in the past and present have uses as a home defense gun
 
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Given the likely distances in the average apartment, where 7 yards (21 feet) is a very long shot, the best protection against going through the walls is to hit the target and not the walls. So many apartment rooms are in the 3 yard (9-10 foot) sort of dimension, this is a daunting sort of closeness even in a shoothouse. So "wall safe" ammo is probably not a realistic presumption maybe so much.

Which would seem to suggest that, for outgoing fires, practice, practice, practice is probably worth more than some special bullet. Maybe.
Now, how to keep incoming misses from being an issue is far more complicated. Not least of which being the landlords tend to be loathe to let tenants "harden" their domiciles.
 
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