Apartment lease ban on guns California

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i can write lease prohibiting pets kids people under a certain age. i for a couple years enforced leases that had you waive many of your rights we could evict you on a majority vote and keep your security deposit with no notice beyond the others in the house voting. and we were supported in this endeavor by the police in the peoples republic of takoma park md. we couldn't cut a tree in our yard without a public hearing but we tossed plenty of folks. the first time we had to educate the cop b ut after that it went smooth. read the lease its a contract don't sign that what you don't wanna abide by. its not like when you lived with mommy
 
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Last I checked, owning pets and having children under a certain age were not protected by the constitution. Keeping and bearing arms is so please try to keep it OT.
 
nowhere in there is it written that you have the right to do things on a property i own. and you are welcome to address the reallity of what we did in the oxford houses with as many hypothetical "it coulda happened that way" scenarios as you like
 
heck some one could surprise us and quote one piece of legislation that disallows what we decribe so far only crickets and bombast
 
cassandrasdaddy, here you go.

Here is the legal basis for this. When you take money from someone in return for his use of a piece of property for a time, it becomes his property to use for that period of time, per California real estate law. There is no, nor need there be, any piece of legislation that addresses guns in apartments, at least in California, where real estate law is pretty clear. See below.

You may want to limit your own bombast.

There are three basic types of real estate title one can create in California: fee simple, life estate, and estate for years.

Fee Simple is called "owning" the property. The previous owner sells it to you, he gets his check for the agreed-upon price, it's yours (subject to mortgage liens, etc.) and it's no longer his.

Life Estate used to be uncommon, but "reverse mortgages" have resurrected this title. It means that you "own" the property until you die, then it automatically belongs to somebody else, specified in the title.

Estate for Years is a lease or rental arrangement (it can be for months, weeks, days or even, if you're Eliot Spitzer, for a few hours, but it's called "Estate for Years" anyway).

The rights of the title holder, though, are very similar if not identical, regardless of which type of title it is. That means that, effectively, the only difference between someone who owns property and someone who rents the property is that the renter must vacate the property at some point, per agreement. Also, upon vacating the property or sometimes in other instances, the renter has to pay the fee simple title holder for the damage.

However, as long as you hold the Estate for Years title (i.e. you are renting the apartment in this case), you are the property holder in the eyes of the law. The landlord cannot legally enter your unit except with notice and only for the purpose of making repairs or related inspection, or upon your request.

As geekWithA.45 says, your legal rights as a citizen on your own property are the same, whether that property is "yours" through any of the three types of title.

If you are renting, the property you're paying for is effectively "your property" for the duration.

WRT property rights, the landlord voluntarily gives up most of his rights to the property for the duration of the lease, in return for money, just like a property seller voluntarily gives up his rights to the property permanently, in return for money.

Nobody is forcing a landlord to rent the property, and if he wishes to use the property however he sees fit, he can simply choose not to rent the property, and use it himself however he wants.

See, the guy with the Fee Simple title voluntarily limited his property rights when he rented the place to someone. He does not own the tenant, so as geek writes, he cannot deprive that tenant of ordinary legal rights, no matter what is in the lease agreement. The renter only has the inside of the unit as an Estate for Years, so the landlord can strictly limit activities in areas not possessed by the tenant, but inside the unit.

Want to let the cops search a place without a warrant? Want to make sure there's never a gun in your unit, or that nobody in your unit votes for Ralph Nader, or that you can walk into the unit whenever you want and do whatever you want? Then don't rent it out. That's the law's view.

Stamping one's feet and shouting "But it's my property, and therefore I can suppress fundamental rights or anything else I want subject to disclosure and contract!", however, does strike me as a different sort of petulance.

True.

And I AM a property owner.
 
I don't think you're going to get a neat, tidy answer since laws vary from state to state.
 
Just a quick note, here in Mississippi they enacted a castle law last year and now the company I work for cannot forbide firearms locked in the cars parked on the company property. I spotted the change on the no weapons poster in the facility
 
key words here
per agreement

The agreement only allows the landlord to break the lease, e.g., end the agreement with X amount of notice, under certain conditions. That's all. It's generally included because there is a good amount of legislation that automatically gives tenants all sorts of "outs" and the landlords want to "level the field." The landlord can choose to tell you that you need to move out under certain conditions; that doesn't mean, however, that he can tell you what to do.

It's clear that most people here don't know anything about California real estate law (both as written and the various unwritten but common practices it engenders), and that is what is at issue here. Therefore, many of these comments, including yours, are indeed bombast.

Here's one that makes sense...
I don't think you're going to get a neat, tidy answer since laws vary from state to state.

Ultimately, it's up to the individual person, whether she wants to have a gun in the apartment. However, by having one, all she's doing is giving the landlord a legal opportunity to break the lease. I figure, let him have that legal opportunity, and conduct your business as you see fit, and don't hurt anyone.

The reality is that most landlords don't actually care whether you do many things that could let them break the lease. They often are quite aware that you're doing them and have no intention of enforcing them unless they want to kick you out of the unit for some other reason. That's just how it's done in California -- it's Game Theory stuff in action. Furthermore, many such lease agreements are boilerplate that the landlord has never actually read through, and certainly didn't write.

Don't try to impose some silly imaginary notion morality on this reality. It will only drive you bonkers. Look through the BS and figure out what's really going on behind the facade.

EDIT: see the very next post by harbingerm for an easy-to-understand example of what's really going on, especially in states where litigation is common.
 
A lot of these "no gun" clauses are put in not so much as to be enforced by the landlord, but rather to give him an "out" if a shooting occurs on his property.

I know a restaurant owner back in Arizona where open carry is perfectly legal and practiced all the time. He has a "no guns" type sign at the front, but people carry all the time in his restaurant as he never enforces the policy. He said it was recommended by his insurance company because if there were ever a shooting and someone tried to sue him because he didn't have a "no guns" policy. Well, now he can point to the sign and say he did, but he didn't realize someone was carrying because he was in the back, cooking, etc.
 
ArmedBear... what you say is correct in the details but misses a crucial point and so comes out wrong in the conclusion.

The terms of the agreement are what they are. I can write a lease that requires $1,000,000 a day for a 500 square foot apartment. Is that reasonable? No... but if someone agrees to that lease, and then fails to pay me my million a day, I can evict them. Maybe it'll take me an hour, maybe six months, but I can evict. The sheriff will even come around to help me get rid of the tenants.

The only real limit is that I cannot set a term that requires a violation of the law to fulfill. In CA I cannot require payment in sex or illicit drugs for example.

There is no law that requires anyone to keep a gun in their house. As such, having, as a term of payment, "must not keep a gun in the house", is perfectly OK.

The opposite might not be true... requiring that tenants KEEP guns would be a problem because some classes (felons, wife beaters, etc) are prohibited so you that would be requiring illegal performance to meet the terms. Even then it would only be because there are fair housing laws that bar landlords from discriminating against prospective tenants.
 
Feud said:
So if the owner invited me over and then decides he no longer wishes for me to have the right to live he may kill me? I do not argue that trespassing invalidates certain rights, but saying that I have no rights, or your equally poor argument that my rights are subject only to the wishes of the owner, would shut the economy overnight since a trip to Wal-Mart would mean you could be gunned down in the aisles if the store owner so chose without any legal consequences or recourse.

Sorry, I take your point. I let the absurdity of the arguments I was contesting creep in to my own.

You not only have the right to leave you are compelled to if your actions or presence on another's property offend the owner to the point he tells you to do so.

Even when leasing a property you are required to follow the terms of the contract or be compelled to leave. Only stipulations in a private contract that are contrary to local or federal law are unenforcable. All others are fair game to be agreed upon by consenting adults.

harbingerm said:
Last I checked, owning pets and having children under a certain age were not protected by the constitution. Keeping and bearing arms is so please try to keep it OT

Last I checked the Consitution didn't apply to land lords. It applies to the federal government so please keep it OT

ArmedBear said:
However, by having one, all she's doing is giving the landlord a legal opportunity to break the lease.

And he hasn't even violated her "rights" (civil, constitutional or otherwise)since she doesn't have the protection of the 2A from a land lord and a contract she willingly signed. I'm glad we finally agree.

And that was my point all along. If she had the right to bear arms while leasing property from another he could not legally break the contract (that forbade her doing so) for her exercising it. As we all see, he can.

Therefore, her 2A right, along with all of the other relevant rights we've discussed thus far, doesn't exist on his property without his permission and by extension a right granted is a privilege and therefore really no "right" at all.

Though, I will concede ArmedBears other point, too. If you don't mind breaking your word to your land lord, the worst he can do is chuck you out and sue you for lost rent damages. It's not like you'd be breaking a penal law or anything by keeping a roscoe on the night stand, regardless of what the contract says.
 
Either way, you still only have the ability to evict them. Nothing else.

I tend to agree with the sentiment that when you lease property, you are temporarily ceding ownership of the property to be returned to you in the same condition it was received. IMO, you rights to or on that property are very limited during the lease.

At least in Texas, they have a standard lease contract that all the apartments use. It says nothing about firearms. The managers were always careful to review every single section with me and made me initial all of them. I don't think I have ever seen one with any significant writing on it.
 
I can see many people here advocate leaving a woman vulnerable to rape or murder.

I wonder why?
 
he could try to sue for rent damages. I doubt he could win. It is all in the terms of the lease and law I would think. It is not like the owner couldn't lease to someone else so until rent is no paid, I don't see what the damages would be.

I believe the 14th amendment or one of them expanded the Bill of Rights to apply to the states. Not sure how broadly it is worded. It is not so much the right to possess a gun so much as the right to defend one self. Not sure how much right you have to limit that simply due to lease terms. A taser is not a gun.
 
i would stand to argue that any property owner making those policies would be both infringing on the right to keep and bear arms, which specifically states "shall not be infringed" and i take that to mean by ANYONE....

You have a serious flaw in your understanding of constitutional law. Do some reading.

K
 
I tend to agree with the sentiment that when you lease property, you are temporarily ceding ownership of the property to be returned to you in the same condition it was received. IMO, you rights to or on that property are very limited during the lease.

Not just a sentiment. It's the law.

ArmedBear... what you say is correct in the details but misses a crucial point and so comes out wrong in the conclusion.

The terms of the agreement are what they are. I can write a lease that requires $1,000,000 a day for a 500 square foot apartment. Is that reasonable? No... but if someone agrees to that lease, and then fails to pay me my million a day, I can evict them. Maybe it'll take me an hour, maybe six months, but I can evict. The sheriff will even come around to help me get rid of the tenants.

If you had read what I wrote all the way through, you would have seen that I said just that. You can evict them. But in this case, the landlord won't.

Again, you don't live in California. The landlord could evict a tenant, but this essentially never happens except in extreme circumstances. Everybody knows this, and when people on either side of the table sign a lease, this is the unspoken understanding. By the same token, the tenants don't pay attention when the landlord hires illegal immigrants to do maintenance and yardwork around the place.

It's all a game, and you have to know how it's played. I'm not sure I've ever signed a lease without clauses in it that would allow the landlord -- or me -- to break the lease, for various and sundry reasons. That's just standard stuff here, because the state makes things very hard on landlords otherwise.

It's also understood by parties involved that these clauses are almost never invoked. They exist so that the landlord can escape liability as mentioned above, or so that the landlord can have tenants evicted if they're running a crack house or something.

Agreements often limit the number of roommates to a lower number than the number of people who will occupy the house, for example. The landlords know there will be four or five people in the house, and they don't care, as long as the rent is paid. The lease says, "three". They just don't want more people on the lease, and/or the city may have building codes or parking regulations that make it far easier for the number to be three instead of five. But five people will live in the house, and they won't ever be evicted unless they make themselves a nuisance in some other, serious way like dealing crack. Sometimes, the landlord knows and greets them all by name.

That's just how it's done. If you don't understand that there's a huge difference between words spoken and written, and what people's actions will be, and that there is often unstated agreement between the parties about it, then you haven't been around much, or you live in a very different place.

Try to understand this, please. That's how the world works, at least here. If you live in a state where landlords and tenants can both be straight-up with each other, instead of giving each other mutual winks, consider yourself lucky. This state ain't like that.

And for those who have a hard time reconciling this with their personal morality, I do understand that. Good luck. Do understand, however, that the landlord is also lying. He doesn't expect you to follow the agreement to the letter; he just wants to make sure he can throw you out if he feels like it, and he doesn't want to say that to your face.
 
mekender said
not in every state.... here in NC, no body other than the state government may make rules or policies that limit the possession of firearms...

I suspect you are confusing the "no preemption" rule, which many states have. Such rules or constitutional provisions prevent political jurisdictions from enacting more restrictive laws than provided by the state. This has nothing to do with rules landlords may have about firearms in their leases.

K
 
I tend to agree with the sentiment that when you lease property, you are temporarily ceding ownership

It's more than a sentiment, it's one of the foundation theories used by our legal system.

When you lease a property you are selling a limited (especially in time) and specific interest in that property in exchange for specific compensation.

The issue some people don't want to accept is that the form of compensation can be anything legal. You can trade a domicile for office work, for car parts, for money, or for any other consideration that is legal.

As for the "but you have a constitutional right to keep firearms"... so what? Having a right doesn't mean you cannot waive that right. You have a right to not incriminate yourself in a criminal trial too... doesn't mean you can't get up on the stand and say you are guilty.
 
Oh, and, 'cause I missed it... ArmedBear... I left CA in 2007 after 30+ years.... in that time I was a renter, owner, and landlord... and I still can't figure out why people think where someone lives matters to their ability to discuss simple subjects like this.
 
Ed, I'm surprised, then, at your stated ignorance of how things work here. Or did you not read my previous post? It was pretty specific, and I don't see where the conclusion was other than what you stated.

Why does it matter what state someone is in? Because someone was asking for advice regarding a proposed course of action, and its consequences. The best advice varies from state to state.

Your previous posts made it sound like you are unfamiliar with California, and I remain surprised that you have been a renter, owner and landlord in this state.

Bear in mind that I am not addressing and did not get embroiled in the RKBA canard in this thread. However, there are such things as legal rights that cannot be voluntarily ceded to anyone, even by mutual agreement, or legally used as a form of payment. Whether RKBA is one of these is before SCOTUS as we write. However, slavery, indentured servitude, and prostitution are all illegal as forms of payment; certain rights like Free Speech have been found to apply even when someone isn't a tenant specifically, as in the case of a shopping mall, and it does not matter what the landlord's conditions are. So, the RKBA people do have a point, whether or not I think there's much of a point to that discussion.
 
But the terms of the lease agreement may stipulate restrictions on the use of that property. For example, I might lease you a vehicle, but the lease agreement could stipulate that you won't use the vehicle to tow a trailer, or that you won't take the vehicle off paved roads. Whatever restrictions I want on the use of my property I can put in the lease. If you sign the lease you are agreeing to the terms. Just because I lease you my vehicle doesn't mean you can do anything with it just as you would your own vehicle.

K
 
I tend to agree with the sentiment that when you lease property, you are temporarily ceding ownership

An owner NEVER Ceceeds OWNERSHIP. WE simply grant the right to use for a specific period of time and specific price. Other conditions obviously apply, however if you lawfully own a gun the clause in the lease is UNINFORCEABLE. It's not like Children, Smoking, Pets.

In California, you might want to check with the Apartment Owners Association of California:
http://www.apartmentownersassociation.com/
 
ArmedBear... I read your previous post(s). I also see part of the problem... I was replying to your post #80 but reality prevented my hitting 'Post' prompty. You then posted again and reality sort of went sideways for a moment.

Having read both posts... I think your first post misses the point one way and your second misses the point the other way. There are real risks invovled in knowingly violating the terms of your lease even in CA where evicting someone is a PITA... and I still don't see the point of suggesting a nod and wink approach as though it's a sound answer. There are plenty of ways to have a home without subjecting yourself to those sorts of risks. The main one being to either challenge the restriction or keep shopping.

As for your surprise... I wasn't a renter very long (I'm not the tenant type) but I still own a house in CA so I'm quite familiar with ownership and landlording it over people.
 
Last I checked, owning pets and having children under a certain age were not protected by the constitution. Keeping and bearing arms is so please try to keep it OT.

The...Bill...of...Rights...is...a...prohibition...against...government...infringement...of...rights.

There. I said it slowly. Did you people not take civics in high school?

First Amendment = freedom of speech, press...etc. That means the government can't censor what you editorialize about in the paper you publish. It doesn't mean that *you* can't censor someone else's ideas they want to publish in your paper. You don't have to publish the pro-gun control letter-to-the-editor someone wrote, unless you want to. Only the government can infringe on their 1A rights.

K
 
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