Appendix Carry Issues

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Fred Fuller, Jun 24, 2015.

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  1. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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  2. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Member

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    It seems like appendix carry is no more or less likely to cause an ND. The major issue appears to be that there is a higher probability of severe consequences if an ND does happen compared to more traditional strongside carry on the hip.
     
  3. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    It's just my personal opinion, but I think any in-the-waistband holster increases the possibility of a ND. I'm not saying such holsters shouldn't be used, and I occasionally use them myself. But, there's just a greater risk of getting things caught up in the trigger guard while trying to place a gun in these holsters.

    Personally, I favor a regular outside of the waistband strong side draw holster. These are certainly harder to conceal, but I can easily and safely reholster without looking at the holster, and the design is comfortable and secure.
     
  4. guyfromohio

    guyfromohio Member

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    Safety aside, how does one sit, drive, move with that set up?
     
  5. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    Guy from ohio,

    Depending on the gun, holster, and body type, it's actually not an issue. I carry an MP shield AIWB in a keepers concealment holster, and have zero problems in terms of comfort.
     
  6. wtr100

    wtr100 Member

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    quite easily actually - depending of course on body type
     
  7. Thermactor

    Thermactor member

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    What about Mexican carry?
     
  8. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    I occasionally appendix carry a Mod 19 2 1/2" with no reholstering problems. It's called practice and paying attention to what you are doing. It's a firearm folks. Improperly handled it WILL hurt you.

    "Mexican carry" is appendix carry WITHOUT a holster.
     
  9. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    I carry AIWB quite often, but carry a 9mm with a manual safety. And depending on the wardrobe and holster, the best way to reholster is often to remove the holster from the belt, holster the gun, then reinsert the holster.

    Easier than with a hip holster, with suitable holster and gun choice. There is a maximum length and bulk (depending on your body shape) beyond which the pistol is too long and digs into your leg, but if the pistol is shorter than that, it's like wearing a cell phone on your belt. It does require a reasonably flat abdomen, though.
     
  10. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    I admit that I have carried the P239 "Mexican style" a few times. Was actually fairly comfortable.

    I am a little surprised that students -in class- are having ND's. Did they just not practice before the class, or was there something about the class that made them forget to pay attention? I would expect the training to make the risk of ND's less.

    I have never attended a class using apendix carry, though, so that presumption has a fairly limited perspective.
     
  11. wtr100

    wtr100 Member

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    ND's happen - there was a class where an experience LEO in IL had an ND doing appendix in the not too distant pass - I wasn't there but as I hear it she did a real number on herself and if there weren't multiple folks on hand with TQT's and med training she might have bled out
     
  12. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Oh, undoubtedly. I am 100% certain that they happen.

    I guess that I just figured they would happen less at a place where you are supposed to learn how to do it properly. Like I said, I have limited perspective here, I just posted what made sense to me.

    Is it complacency that gets them? Is it the idea that things cannot go wrong at a training course and people get lax?
    I would assume that people who bring appendix carry holsters to a training class have used them before, yes? I am very curious as to what about the training environment cause these kinds of things.
     
  13. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    Some classes and instructors teach reholstering quickly, by feel or "muscle memory", and without looking down. That may work fine with an OWB belt holster, but it is not what an AIWB holster is made for, and if students were trying to reholster in that fashion to keep up with the rest of the class, that could be the causative factor. If you carry AIWB, wait to reholster until you can devote your full attention (brain, both eyes, and both hands) to the job of reholstering.
     
  14. guyfromohio

    guyfromohio Member

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    My instructor swears by AIWB. I'm not sure I have the physique for it. Also spend many hours in the car each week.
     
  15. wtr100

    wtr100 Member

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    errors seem to happen when you focus on ‘something’ else. Student fixates on ‘getting off the X’ or whatever and forgets to keep the booger picker off the bang switch
     
  16. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Been using appendix carry for 20 years or more. Used S& S&Ws and Glocks (with NY-1/3.5 connectors) and narry a problem.

    Just cause some folks can't ktffotft (or use a proper holster) don't mean I can't.

    It's a non-issue to me.

    Deaf
     
  17. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    I done it and it works for me but in a training class I would be very cautious.
     
  18. Dirty Bob

    Dirty Bob Member

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    Ten plus years of cautious appendix carry for me. I don't practice fast reholstering. If I suddenly heard sirens and I had a pistol in hand, I'd tuck the pistol in a back pocket.

    Appendix carry is not for the careless. It requires close attention during the draw and during reholstering.

    Dirty Bob
     
  19. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    I thing it's a range training issue, not one we see in the field. If there are a number of reholstering discharges going on - address that. Something is causing an unsafe combination of actions that creates a mindset less capable of putting safety first.

    For lack of a better term, the issue seems to come from course instructors who allow "combat speed reholstering" to creep into their lesson plan. I don't think it's intentional at all, but if it's happening in class, then the instructor needs to address his plans to prevent it.

    Appendix carry isn't going away, banning it is just another reaction which lessen our carry options to only those safe to use an a square range. Taking that to an extreme means we better start rolling a range table in front of us everywhere we go because only "range table carry" will be safe enough to exercise.

    Address the lesson plan issues with reholstering instead of making this an appendix carry debate - because it's not any more a problem in the field that an OWB holster. In fact, less, because the vast majority of ND's nationwide are from belted holsters when you include LEO's.

    Fix the issue - lesson plans that create "combat speed reholstering" with appendix carry. It very much is a training issue, trainers need to fix it.
     
  20. DHJenkins

    DHJenkins Member

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    I'd say it's operator error, but you never know what twist some knuclehead instructor might put on the simple act of reholstering.
     
  21. Malamute

    Malamute Member

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    Some may be ND's from not keeping the finger out of the trigger guard, some are clothing, drawstrings and their adjuster/keepers, or other objects getting snagged on the reholster. Clothing also can get into the holster as the gun is placed in it, then the person pulls the clothing free, sometimes resulting in the gun coming back out to fall on the ground, or the clothing snagging the trigger, followed by a loud noise.

    Classes are an artificial environment. They are doing something multiple times, far more than in daily life. If one isnt watching the gun as it goes in the holster, the possibility exists that something could get snagged, unless you are wearing clothes that cant get caught. It would seem only form fitting clothes would meet that criteria.

    Its great that people can carry for ages and nothing happen. That doesnt mean nothing can ever happen, and it doesnt mean youre a bonehead or dont know what youre doing if it does, just that things happen we cant always see or anticipate unless scrupulously careful with every single reholster. If you arent watching every reholster, it may happen to you one day.

    Some people hold their thumb on the hammer as they reholster, which can alleviate the AD/ND. Others hold the safety on positively as they reholster. Some guns are more difficult to take preventative action with.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
  22. DWebb

    DWebb Member

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    It probably stems from trying to get too many rep's in, too fast. AIWB ought to be the easiest and safest, because you can see exactly what you're doing. And as others have said - you should be looking, and you should be reholstering it slooooowly.

    http://knowledgeskillgear.com/how-to-optimize-aiwb-carry.html
     
  23. Sheepdog1968

    Sheepdog1968 Member

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    In law enforcement I can understand needing re holster quickly as things deescalate. As regular citizens, I've never felt a need to holster quickly in any of the classes I've taken. Draw quickly but holster slowly.
     
  24. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Saw this mentioned over at Tam's place t'other day ...

    http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-gadget-is-go.html

    Also at Pistol Forum...

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?712-The-Gadget-REVEALED

    And the website- https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gadget-a-striker-control-device#/story

    With a cutaway and video to show its internal workin's.

    Kinda a hardware approach to a software problem ... sorta kinda. But I can see the logic.
     
  25. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Member

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    Training Gun Disarms With a Loaded Handgun

    XXx
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
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