Ar 15 cons

[Sistema1927]

I don't think that cons should have access to AR15s, especially while they are incarcerated.

 

[12Bravo20]

Well I have seen and used both the M16 and AK in hostile desert environments. I can tell you first hand that the AK isn't as full proof as some would think. I have seen plenty jam up and not function. With any weapon, it boils down to proper training and proper maintenance.

As far as trying to improve the M16/AR15 platform, engineers and designers have been trying to do just that for years and the military sticks with the M16 platform because it works and works well for the majority of service members. Look at all of the failed attempts to replace the M16/M4 in the last 20+ years, they have all failed. Plus you have to remember that you now have at least 3 generations of service members that have used the M16 successfully in combat. I have used the M16A1/A2 in pretty much every type of environment from the arctic to tropical jungles to the deserts of the Middle East and they have never failed me.

 

[Jack Flash]

Sounds like you bought an el cheapo AR, or you've been reading "sports journalism".

All of my entry-level sub-$500 ARs have run flawlessly, save for a single snapped extractor. I wish I could find pistol magazines for anything as boringly reliable as $8 D&H AR magazines. The controls are strongly right-handed, but otherwise along the more sensible layouts available.

I've got multitudes of D&H mags, and never ever had an issue with them.

Hell I have more GI mags than I'd admit to owning and never had a problem with them. I have swapped out the follower on maybe a dozen or so of them thou, but it was because I bought a bunch of magpul followers cheap at a gun show.

 

[entropy]

I was intending to open conversation on design details. I guess that is taboo here?

SInce neither you nor I are redesigning the AR, it is a rather moot point.

It is my belief that an AK magazine is far superior to a GI AR magazine. Both in ruggedness & reliability. Are we on fairly strong ground there?

And you are unanimously alone in that opinion.

I guess there aren't many foreward-thinking folks interested in designing a better firearm. That's where I was headed.

Sure there are; they work for DARPA. There's a bunch of in Izhevsk, Russia, also. I'm not one of them, nor are you. And my idea of fun in drafting in High School was designing SMG's a High School metal shop could make.

 

[ACES&8S]

I told you my CON on the AR is the -$$$$$- it can run into, I have seen people with moderate income, put a
couple grand into new caliber uppers & sight systems which & adjustable stocks & fore stocks with unlimited
attachment options which they begin to swap out until they buy a second receiver & try to finish that second one
going into sacrificing needs for their hobby. Causing financial problems at home.
The AR has more pros than CONS or there wouldn't be so many Stoner copies.
The forward assist may be IN THE WAY but I have had to use it a couple of times.
The charging handle is difficult with a full size scope, but there are optional handles that work for it. Like I said $$$$.
Sorry, that's all I can help you. Get on the ropes & lean back, these guys are good.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

There are plenty of people that have found things about the AR platform that they don’t like. This is why there is such a large market for aftermarket parts. Some are improvements and some are just different.
The best way to start off an intelligent discussion is not by complaining about thing you don’t like.
You talked about the AR not being so friendly to a left handed, or one armed person, but you never said if you were left handed, or had only one arm.
It does help to know what you are talking about when trying to have an intelligent discussion, but I sometimes find that there are a good many people that know a lot about things they know very little about.
Now I carried and trained with the M16A1 and the A2. I used the A2 in combat against the AK47. At the end of the day I had ammo left over and an AK that someone no longer had any use for.
Now my 17 yo son is left handed and likes the AR platform. He helped build his first AR at the age of 12. It was just a basic carbine.


He was 14 when he built his second AR. I supervised and only helped out a little. We went with a latchless charging handle and ambi selector switch. He also picked out the color.


There are several manufacturers that have made changes to the AR platform over the years. Some for looks, some for function and some for both. So if there is something about the AR platform that you don’t care for, there’s a good chance that someone has a part that will fit your needs or likes.
For me, I don’t care for a reciprocating charging handle on an AR. Just like on any other rifle you run the risk of it hitting on something when moving back and forth. So when I built my side charger, I went with a non-reciprocating upper.


I also like ARs that are set up a little different from each other. It all depends on the intended use so, I built some that were just a little different from each other.


I put this charging handle on the AR that I use to teach others to shoot.

 

[mcb]

STANAG followers tilt. Even the "non tilt" version tilts. An AK follower stays true regardless where force is applied. The AR catch is not reliable when bolt is fwd. Requires you to slap it very hard to assure latch. That effectively negates the perceived speed advantage of a handgun style magazine & catch. Aluminum will always have more friction than steel. A small amount of carbon drastically increases friction w aluminum. That is a metallurgical fact. As far as fumble proofing, that is a matter of practice. Once you learn the trick of it, I think you will find it is more natural then you think. ARs routinely have magazine issues that are absent on AKs.

I have never had and issue with the anti-tilt followers tilting. The Magpul follower and the copy-cats have all worked for me and never tilted. Most of my straight 20rd magazines still have the old tilting followers and work great for me. Three of my ARs use single stack magazines so there is that too... Any documentation showing this problem or just your observations?

I spent some time looking for the coefficient of friction for brass on aluminum and was unable to find one. Brass on steel is fairly well documented but brass on aluminum I can't find. I looked on the internet at several of my usual engineering reference websites and several of my engineering text books and came up empty on good data for the coefficient of friction (static or kinetic) for brass on aluminum. My might be right you claim it as a fact, so you should be able to show the numbers with proper references to support it.

Again you say the catch is not a reliable when the bolt is foreword and there may be some truth to that hence the down loading of 30rd magazines to 29 or 28 round. But as you imply with your AK argument practice makes the AK fumble proof, well practice make fully seating an AR equally full proof. Never been in combat, thank goodness, but I have shot a lot of practical shooting sports (carbine, 2-gun, 3-gun etc) and I have to say I have seen vanishingly few magazine issues with either gun but you sure see a lot more ARs at these competitions and you rarely see the AK guys at the top of the score board. The ergonomics of the AR have, at least in that setting, proven to be the winning setup.

Oh and you still owe me your sub 2-second AK reload beating my revolver reload.

ETA There are steel, stainless-steel and various polymers used in addition to traditional aluminum for making AR magazines and even hybrid magazines that use polymer and metals together to construct the magazine body. I believe similar can be said for AK magazines though the variety might not be as large.

 

[ms6852]

Having shot both platforms throughout my military career and as a retiree, for me there are two cons that are a deal breaker when it comes to the AK47. First is the accuracy issue of the AK 47 is that industry standard for an AK is about 6 MOA and secondly is the sighting system it has, the rear sight and front sight are to close. You can get on occasion a pretty accurate AK but lets face it is rare. On the other hand you can buy a cheap Anderson rifle factory out of the box and will out shoot the AK either with iron sights or scoped.

Not knocking the AK at all as the system for the rifle is great but not the sighting system. Just my 2¢.

 

[trackskippy]

A rifleman uses a sling to steady his shots. That means you have to undo your sling hold to do a left

Most of my AR slings arent set up as a "shooting" sling, even a hasty type sling. They are primarily used as a carry sling, and are similar to an AK's sling in use (side mounted strap type).

The AR's are, or can be, more easily adapted to a shooting sling, the AK's, not so much. The sling set up on most AK's doesn't really lend itself to, nor is it really meant to be, a shooting aid. And truthfully, the way most AR's are set up these days, that applies to them as well.

Depending on what you are doing, a shooting sling can be a big help, but you need to know how and when to use it and have time to set it up. Not a big deal if you've set it up a bit ahead of time, but it usually requires some changes from a carry type sling and isn't usually done quickly.

The problem with the AR's is, the original carry type sling is very basic and meant as a carry strap. As it comes, it pretty much sucks as a patrol type carry sling, but can work as a hasty type shooting sling, if its adjusted properly. But then there you are, "fiddling around" while you should probably be shooting.

It is my belief that an AK magazine is far superior to a GI AR magazine. Both in ruggedness & reliability. Are we on fairly strong ground there?

Why is it better? The rock to lock of the AK magazine is not as fumble proof as the simple straight insertion of the STANAG magazine. The steel AK magazine is noticeable heavier, even before you put heavier ammunition in it, than the aluminum STANAG magazine. Not seeing an advantage to the AK magazine.

Most of the foreign AK mags I have are built like a tank and can be a weapon in their own right. About the closest you get to that with an AR mag are the current Korean steel AR mags available. Those are pretty robust, especially compared to the aluminum mags.

The "rock in" mags have both advantages and disadvantages. One advantage is, you don't have to down load the mags as there's usually plenty of leverage there to override the stiffer spring against the closed bolt.

The biggest downside, and its a REAL doosey, is the dreaded mag "lock up" that can occur if you don't get the mag seated properly and rock it in. It looks like everything is fine, and you really don't feel anything different, but whats happened is, the mag isn't fully inserted in the gun, and the bolt cant strip a round off the mag. When you go to try and remove the mag, its LOCKED in and wont gome out, short of putting the butt on the ground and kicking it out. Its a real treat you don't want to have to deal with, trust me.

The above seems to be more apt to happen, if you're in a rush, and trying to load the gun in the old, specified "Russian" manner, by holding the gun in your left hand, and using your right hand to insert the mag. As opposed to using your left hand to load, with your right hand on the grip. But it can happen either way.

And truthfully, if your choice of gun is the AK, you should set one of those malfunctions up, just so you know what goes on and what to do to remedy it. If you're actually running the gun beyond shooting from a bench or casual back yard shooting, you're likely going to encounter it at some point, and you really need to know whats going on and how to deal with it.

STANAG followers tilt. Even the "non tilt" version tilts. An AK follower stays true regardless where force is applied. The AR catch is not reliable when bolt is fwd. Requires you to slap it very hard to assure latch. That effectively negates the perceived speed advantage of a handgun style magazine & catch. Aluminum will always have more friction than steel. A small amount of carbon drastically increases friction w aluminum. That is a metallurgical fact. As far as fumble proofing, that is a matter of practice. Once you learn the trick of it, I think you will find it is more natural then you think. ARs routinely have magazine issues that are absent on AKs.

I have AR mags with the old original followers that came with the mags from back in the late 60's, early 70's, up to the MagPul anti tilts in some mags, and whatever was in between. Really cant ever remember having troubles with any of them, and that's from both semi and full auto guns.

The only ones I seem to have trouble with, are the new Korean steel mags when trying to load them with a "StripLula" mag loader. If I try and go fast, things bind up. Go slow, and they load right up. Shooting wise, never had a stoppage with one, shooting fast or slow.

The "slap" or "bump" insertion thing is really not a big deal and is easily addressed if you've been following the other thread. On the other hand, that AK malfunction I mentioned above IS a major problem with the AK's.

And you're right, practice to the point of doing it without thinking about doing whatever it is, is the only way to become familiar and good with whatever you choose to use. And better yet, do it with everything you can, even if its not your first choice. That way you don't fall victim to these types of silly arguments.

 

[trackskippy]

Having shot both platforms throughout my military career and as a retiree, for me there are two cons that are a deal breaker when it comes to the AK47. First is the accuracy issue of the AK 47 is that industry standard for an AK is about 6 MOA and secondly is the sighting system it has, the rear sight and front sight are to close. You can get on occasion a pretty accurate AK but lets face it is rare. On the other hand you can buy a cheap Anderson rifle factory out of the box and will out shoot the AK either with iron sights or scoped.

Not knocking the AK at all as the system for the rifle is great but not the sighting system. Just my 2¢.

The biggest thing the AR's have going for them, "iron sight" wise, is they basically have "target type" sights. Most of the AK's have "hunting" or old school "combat type" sights.

I do think the AR platform is just inherently more accurate too, but a properly built AK isn't bad either.

Properly mount a red dot on either, and at realistic distances, they seem to shoot very much the same from what Ive seen. At least the hits on target are very similar.

Trying to shoot little groups, and I think the AR's will likely win in most cases, but shooting more realistically, I don't think you're going to see a whole lot of difference.

Personally, I think two of the biggest internet myths going are, the AR's are unreliable, and the AK's are inaccurate.

And from my personal experiences with both, I haven't found either to be the case.

The only AK I had that wasn't as accurate as Id like, was one of the early US assembled "kit" guns by Arsenal. That gun was probably in your 6moa zone. All the guns Ive had from the countries that make and issue them, seem to shoot around 3moa with decent ammo. The Russian guns seemed to be the best of the lot too.

Im not saying Id want to shoot the national matches with an AK either. But if you can shoot, and you have a reasonable example, the AK's can shoot.

 

[Bcwitt]

Most of my AR slings arent set up as a "shooting" sling, even a hasty type sling. They are primarily used as a carry sling, and are similar to an AK's sling in use (side mounted strap type).

The AR's are, or can be, more easily adapted to a shooting sling, the AK's, not so much. The sling set up on most AK's doesn't really lend itself to, nor is it really meant to be, a shooting aid. And truthfully, the way most AR's are set up these days, that applies to them as well.

Depending on what you are doing, a shooting sling can be a big help, but you need to know how and when to use it and have time to set it up. Not a big deal if you've set it up a bit ahead of time, but it usually requires some changes from a carry type sling and isn't usually done quickly.

The problem with the AR's is, the original carry type sling is very basic and meant as a carry strap. As it comes, it pretty much sucks as a patrol type carry sling, but can work as a hasty type shooting sling, if its adjusted properly. But then there you are, "fiddle ******* around" while you should probably be shooting.





Most of the foreign AK mags I have are built like a tank and can be a weapon in their own right. About the closest you get to that with an AR mag are the current Korean steel AR mags available. Those are pretty robust, especially compared to the aluminum mags.

The "rock in" mags have both advantages and disadvantages. One advantage is, you don't have to down load the mags as there's usually plenty of leverage there to override the stiffer spring against the closed bolt.

The biggest downside, and its a REAL doosey, is the dreaded mag "lock up" that can occur if you don't get the mag seated properly and rock it in. It looks like everything is fine, and you really don't feel anything different, but whats happened is, the mag isn't fully inserted in the gun, and the bolt cant strip a round off the mag. When you go to try and remove the mag, its LOCKED in and wont gome out, short of putting the butt on the ground and kicking it out. Its a real treat you don't want to have to deal with, trust me.

The above seems to be more apt to happen, if you're in a rush, and trying to load the gun in the old, specified "Russian" manner, by holding the gun in your left hand, and using your right hand to insert the mag. As opposed to using your left hand to load, with your right hand on the grip. But it can happen either way.

And truthfully, if your choice of gun is the AK, you should set one of those malfunctions up, just so you know what goes on and what to do to remedy it. If you're actually running the gun beyond shooting from a bench or casual back yard shooting, you're likely going to encounter it at some point, and you really need to know whats going on and how to deal with it.




I have AR mags with the old original followers that came with the mags from back in the late 60's, early 70's, up to the MagPul anti tilts in some mags, and whatever was in between. Really cant ever remember having troubles with any of them, and that's from both semi and full auto guns.

The only ones I seem to have trouble with, are the new Korean steel mags when trying to load them with a "StripLula" mag loader. If I try and go fast, things bind up. Go slow, and they load right up. Shooting wise, never had a stoppage with one, shooting fast or slow.

The "slap" or "bump" insertion thing is really not a big deal and is easily addressed if you've been following the other thread. On the other hand, that AK malfunction I mentioned above IS a major problem with the AK's.

And you're right, practice to the point of doing it without thinking about doing whatever it is, is the only way to become familiar and good with whatever you choose to use. And better yet, do it with everything you can, even if its not your first choice. That way you don't fall victim to these types of silly arguments.

Thank you for intelligent & thorough conversation. I have found the way to reliably catch the trunnion is put the left index finger under the hook where it meets the body. This way your knuckle serves as an up stop & assist in "hitting the hole" w eyes off. I agree w the 20 rd gi mag & the magpul mags being good mags, however I have concerns about durability of the polymer bodies in cold weather.GI 30 rd is just not well engineered, in my opinion. I often have smashed 556 cases when loading bolt fwd, in several ARs ( I have 3 of them). I have yet to do so w x39s. I appreciate the heavy & rugged construction of sandinista bananas. I have run over them w my truck & it works fine. I have witnessed some very bad jams in ARs, and by bad I mean requires tools to clear. On one occasion the bullet pulled (Federal AE 55gr) . That is a very bad situation. Aluminum magazines are very easily dented & distorted. The width & depth of an AR 15s magazine well places limitations on alternate magazines. The magpul magazine ( a game changing improvement) has a rather thin spot toward the front near the bottom of the well. I have not seen it cause a problem, I am concerned about using polymers in frigid weather. A heavy steel magazine that can hit a hard surface from over 10 feet & not sustain any damage is very reassuring to me.

 

[mcb]

The AR has also become so popular that every single potential issue the OP has called out (whether we agree with him or not) has had enough other people that agree with him that you can eliminate all the OP's perceived issues and still have what is ostensibly an AR, though no doubt heavily modified.

Anyone else find the fwd assist, mag catch, hold open, mag well & ****** GI magazines very annoying? I like the AR, not doubt. But they could have made a better magazine system, & the charging handle is probably the worst ever.

There are lots of AR uppers out there that eliminate the forward assist. There are even plugs to eliminate the forward assist on standard AR uppers. As for the charging handle you can find AR uppers have side-charging handle, on either side, and that reciprocate or does not reciprocate as you choose. You can even convert a standard upper to a side charging upper with third party accessories.

There are several AR lowers that will accept AK style magazines and thus also change the magazine catch.

Bolt hold open ergonomics can be changed with a variety of ambidextrous lowers and again third party accessories to change how you interface to that feature.

You can even go so far as to change the direct impingement (Eugen's words) system to a piston (short or long stroke) system to make it even more like and AK if you desire.

Every single issue the OP has brought up has been address by other like minded individuals and the OP merely needs to do some additional research and can likely find or more easily build an AR that is much close to what he perceives as ideal.

 

[Bcwitt]

The AR has also become so popular that every single potential issue the OP has called out (whether we agree with him or not) has had enough other people that agree with him that you can eliminate all the OP's perceived issues and still have what is ostensibly an AR, though no doubt heavily modified.



There are lots of AR uppers out there that eliminate the forward assist. There are even plugs to eliminate the forward assist on standard AR uppers. As for the charging handle you can find AR uppers have side-charging handle, on either side, and that reciprocate or does not reciprocate as you choose. You can even convert a standard upper to a side charging upper with third party accessories.

There are several AR lowers that will accept AK style magazines and thus also change the magazine catch.

Bolt hold open ergonomics can be changed with a variety of ambidextrous lowers and again third party accessories to change how you interface to that feature.

You can even go so far as to change the direct impingement (Eugen's words) system to a piston (short or long stroke) system to make it even more like and AK if you desire.

Every single issue the OP has brought up has been address by other like minded individuals and the OP merely needs to do some additional research and can likely find or more easily build an AR that is much close to what he perceives as ideal.

Seems like you enjoy sequestering other persons opinions. If you go back & READ WHAT I SAID the first time, I was just pointing out a few thing (in my opinion) had room for improvement. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, I will make it a point to include a sensitivity disclaimer next time.

 

[Bcwitt]

SInce neither you nor I are redesigning the AR, it is a rather moot point.



And you are unanimously alone in that opinion.



Sure there are; they work for DARPA. There's a bunch of in Izhevsk, Russia, also. I'm not one of them, nor are you. And my idea of fun in drafting in High School was designing SMG's a High School metal shop could make.

How do you know I am not redesigning the AR? That was the whole point of the discussion.

 

[Robert]

Four pages seems like more than enough as we appear to be getting more heat than light. As a reminder, profanity is never allowed on THR. If your post come up with ****** please edit and select a different word. Creative spellings and special characters are not allowed either.