AR-15 HBAR's

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Slater

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Not a lot of folks outside of competition seem to shoot heavy-barrel AR's due to their weight and they tend to be front-heavy.

I remember reading some time ago that the HBAR profile eliminates or reduces barrel "whip". You never hear this term mentioned any more so I'm guessing that it mainly relates to competition shooting?
 
I slapped together a reg 16" w heavy bbl profile under the handguards. My 11.5/5.5 is that way too. It does make em front heavy even on a 16". Which is what i wanted on a yote smacker
 
Heavier barrels take longer to heat up, dissipate heat more rapidly, and have less flex than smaller diameter barrels. They also, obviously, weigh more. Most guys carry and handle their rifles more than they actually shoot far or fast, so the extra weight is just that.

Personally, almost all of the AR’s I build for myself use an “HBAR like” contour. Heavy under the handguard, but with a .750” gas block and (nominal) muzzle. I prefer the way they balance in hand, and on the bipod or bag, such I can use the rifle effectively in multiple applications.
 
The HBAR is just another flavor of AR barrel profiles. It has pro's and con's, like anything else. If you are shooting a significant amount of cartridges from a fixed position - shooting from a bench, prairie dog hunt, etc - it's ideal. However, there is a misnomer that they are more accurate. They do have more material, which is a heat sink for maintaining more consistent barrel temps shot to shot. It also takes more prolonged shooting to get the barrel to a temperature where it would deform. (You can look up meltdown videos to see that the thin section under the handguard is the A2 profile's weak point in unrealistic torture testing.) HBAR's use doesn't have to be limited to competition shooting, but competition is so open ended that it depends on what kind of competition. Carrying heavier guns will wear you out faster, but does that matter on a prairie dog hunt where you're shooting from a rest? - not really. Does it matter when you're running and gunning, mag dumping a stage? - it could cost you time. To a point, additional rifle weight helps keep you on target through the small amount of recoil. However, adjustable gas blocks and tuned loads can lead you the other direction, into ultralight ARs, with lightened BCG's, silent capture springs, etc - which has been the AR fad for some time now. Again, it depends on what you're doing with it whether the additional weight is desirable or not.

As for the muzzle heavy traits, before carbine stocks with H3 buffers and ultra lightweight AR's were a thing, people used rifle recoil systems. Heavy barrels were balanced out with A2 stocks. There was even a lead insert available for A2 stocks for really heavy barrels. Some people just bought a heavy stock, like the Magpul PRS to provide balance.

A lot of people used to complain about the weight of their HBAR, especially with the 4-rail picatinny handguard. Up until the evolution of the ultralight AR, the typical response to complaints of heavy AR's was that the person "needed to go lift some weights" or "hit the gym." You don't hear that anymore. It's not that everyone is hitting the gym now either. Low profile gas blocks and skelatonized handguards made the overall weight lighter, even with a heavier barrel contour.
 
Can you explain this? My understanding of the laws of thermodynamics is a little iffy. But seems to me if it takes longer to heat up it thus takes longer to cool down.

You’re confusing heat transmissivity and specific heat capacity with mass and surface area.

Basic thermodynamics here:

A bigger mass of steel is a bigger heat sink. Hence, it takes longer to heat a larger mass of steel.

A larger diameter barrel has greater surface area. Hence, it expels heat more rapidly.

Slower to heat up, faster to cool down.
 
What about the fluted barrels? I've been looking at the 6.5 grendel 24" stainless fluted barrels at Bear creek, not sure I would shoot enough to heat it up but just in case
 
What about the fluted barrels? I've been looking at the 6.5 grendel 24" stainless fluted barrels at Bear creek, not sure I would shoot enough to heat it up but just in case
Flutes add surface area while reducing mass. But they retain most of the tension or strength of the large diameter barrel. Mostly though they are lighter than non fluted barrels of the same profile.
 
I have two HBAR rifles, a 16” and a 20”. The longer barreled upper is on an A2-stocked lower, and it’s pretty heavy compared to my other AR rifles. This I (try?!?) to shoot as an open sighted match gun. It is a lot of fun to shoot as it’s pretty darn accurate with good ammo.... much better than I am (sadly).

The 16” is in 7.62x39 and has a collapsible stock, so the bit of extra weight out there feels good dampening the somewhat increased recoil of the Russian round VS the 5.56.

These aren’t the huge “ bull barrels” I’ve seen on some guns, but there is a noticeable increase in heft and swing weight of an HBAR compared to my standard weight, M4 or “pencil barrel” contoured rifles.

Stay safe!
 
Heavier barrels take longer to heat up, dissipate heat more rapidly, and have less flex than smaller diameter barrels. They also, obviously, weigh more. Most guys carry and handle their rifles more than they actually shoot far or fast, so the extra weight is just that.

Can you explain this? My understanding of the laws of thermodynamics is a little iffy. But seems to me if it takes longer to heat up it thus takes longer to cool down.

I've got an early '90's H-bar, I didn't buy it to compete with, more to just have a reasonable clone of my issue -A1 from when I was in the army. I can tell you... I wouldn't have wanted to lug that heavy SOB around out in the field, but it's a fun rifle to shoot otherwise, and, of course, quite accurate with the right bullet.

The heat issue surprised me. I used to mag dump my H-Bar... heat was never an issue. I built a lightweight carbine with a 16" lightweight barrel and, man, I'll tell you that thing gets HOT! Not even with mag dumps (which I don't do anymore, since I've grown up...) but just regular sustained fire, 100 rounds and that forearm is so hot you can barely hold it. I've taken to being Tacticool and wearing a glove on my left hand (not so Tacticool... it's just an old motocross glove I cut the fingers out of...) so I can hold it without cooking my hand.

I'm just a dumb truck driver, so I don't know anything about physics and such, but I'll tell you my next build will have a heavier barrel.
 
I heard the HBAR was invented because G.I.'s were using the 3 prong flash hiders as pry bars and wire cutters and bending barrels because of that.
 
My carbine has an HBAR profile. My rifle has a ridiculous heavy 22” 6.8spc barrel. I like both, but the barrel on my carbine was a cheapo that needs replaced. I have been hoping to score a deal on a decent takeoff barrel but no such luck yet. If HBARs are not well liked then I would think they would pop up on the used market. I mainly see m16 profile or pencil barrels. Not for me.
 
I heard the HBAR was invented because G.I.'s were using the 3 prong flash hiders as pry bars and wire cutters and bending barrels because of that.
The three prong flash hider was replaced by the birdcage flash hider while the M16A1 was still in service. The A2 had a heavier barrel then the A1, but was tapered under the handguard. This is most often called a Government Profile barrel.
2.6 lbs
BAR20MG7N.jpg

They never used the three prong flash hider on the A2.

I'm not a fan of 16" heavy barrels for a carbine that will be carried in the field.
2.3 lbs
BAR16MM7SNS.jpg
I prefer the Govt. profile .
1.8 lbs
BAR16MMG7NS.2.1.jpg
 
You’re confusing heat transmissivity and specific heat capacity with mass and surface area.

Basic thermodynamics here:

A bigger mass of steel is a bigger heat sink. Hence, it takes longer to heat a larger mass of steel.

A larger diameter barrel has greater surface area. Hence, it expels heat more rapidly.

Slower to heat up, faster to cool down.
Hmmmm...
 
Seriously, who uses the rifle for a pry bar? I read a recent article where they discussed the govt profile barrel... they said it didn't solve any problem, real or imagined.

Myself... I like the looks of the 16" 2.3lb heavy barrel... I'm trying to remember if it's available in 1:9 twist... put it with an A2 stock.
 
Seriously, who uses the rifle for a pry bar? I read a recent article where they discussed the govt profile barrel... they said it didn't solve any problem, real or imagined.

Myself... I like the looks of the 16" 2.3lb heavy barrel... I'm trying to remember if it's available in 1:9 twist... put it with an A2 stock.
JSE Surplus has them in stock in stock
Phosphate finish for $95
https://www.jsesurplus.com/Del-Ton16Midlength1x9MolyBarrelStripped.aspx
Chrome lined for $145
https://www.jsesurplus.com/Del-Ton16Midlength1x9ChromeLinedBarrelStripped.aspx
 
I don't recall anyone using the M16a1 for a pry bar but with the three prong flash hider and the M16 pistol grip, it made an excellent tool for removing the baling wire straps on C ration cases.
We had a recruit in my Basic Training company that bent two M16 barrels on the bayonet range though and finished the cycle carrying a 2x4 except when actually shooting on the firing range.
 

To elucidate the heat transfer a bit, because I have a couple long breaks today while we’re running a reaction. Taking the simplified means to describe this system, rather than messing with higher order mathematics and transient state systems, since the outcome is exactly the same.

3 things are happening from our “zero state.”

1) Heat is transferred from the combusting gases to the barrel

2) The temperature of the barrel mass rises

3) The barrel mass expels heat to the ambient air mass

1) Rate of Heat transfer to the barrel: Q=U*A*(Th-Tc)*t

Q is the total heat transferred, represented by Q=Q•*t. Q• is the rate of heat transfer, colloquially, this is the “amount of energy” transferred from the hot mass to the cold mass, while the two masses are in contact. In a firing rifle, the total heat transferred then can be calculated by multiplying Q by the contact time t. This number will be the same for any barrel diameter, as proven below.

U is the overall heat transfer coefficient, effectively how well the two materials transfer heat from one to the other. The units for U are BTU/Ft2 hr •F, which describes heat transfer per area, per amount of time, per degree of temperature difference. U-values are properties of the two materials, in this case, the propellant gases and the barrel. This is the same for any barrel diameter.

A is the area of the transfer surface. In our case, the internal surface area of the bore. This is the same for any outside-diameter of barrel.

Th and Tc are the hot and cold temperatures. In our case, the temp of the hot propellant gases and that of the relatively cold barrel mass. This is the same for any diameter of barrel at the first shot.

Since we’re in a complex, transient state system, it’s easier to just generalize here and take an average estimate for gas temp and dwell time to represent how many BTU’s are given from the hot gases to the cold barrel.

So we fire a shot, and “Q” rate of heat transfer to the barrel while the hot gas is in contact with the barrel, such Q*t (time) represents the total heat transferred. You can see above, the transfer rate is ONLY a function of the material types (U), the bore surface area (A), the dwell time (t), and the difference in temperatures (Th-Tc). At this point, barrel mass and OD don’t matter, so a single shot will transfer the same total heat to any barrel, regardless of profile.

So if we had sufficient data, we would know the heat transferred by each shot - we would know Q. For now, we simply need to know A) it is not dependent upon barrel diameter, and B) that it could be solved given sufficient data.

2) Barrel heating up: Q = M*Cp*(Tf-Ti).

Q again is the heat transferred, which we proved above is constant regardless of the barrel diameter. Effectively, it’s not an unknown, if we solved the first equation above.

M is the mass of the barrel - this is where we start having two sets of equations to compare the two different barrel diameters.

Cp is specific heat capacity, a property of the material. Same for any diameter of barrel.

Tf is the final temp, Ti is the initial temp. When you compare the heavy barrel to the smaller, Q is the same, so if M increases for one, the Tf-Ti term must decrease. Since Ti is the starting, ambient temp, then decreasing (Tf-Ti) would mean Tf has to reduce as mass increases.

As such, we have explained that larger diameter barrels take longer to heat up than a smaller diameter barrel - or more appropriately, heavier barrels take more shots to reach the same final temperature than a lower mass barrel.

3) Barrel mass expelling heat to ambient air

Again, Qcooling=UA(Th-Tc)t as it was in the first step above.

Qcooling is the heat transferred to the ambient air by the barrel mass in the given amount of time, t.

Again, U is a property of the two materials, in this case, steel and air, and it is not dependent upon Barrel diameter.

A, again, is the surface area of the barrel. This IS dependent upon the diameter of the barrel. The larger the diameter, the larger the A.

Th is the hot barrel temp, Tc is the cool air temp. We have options here - we can say we got both barrels to the same starting temp -which is Tf from above - and want to see which cools faster so then (Th-Tc) is the same for both barrels. Or we can say we took the same number of shots with both barrels, such both contain the same heat to be transferred (equal Q’s) to the air - which would mean the temp difference would not be the same, because the Tf in step 2 would be different. Either way, the same result falls out, because, as described above, Q is the amount of heat transferred, and Q• is the rate of transfer, such Q=Q•*t. But in one case, all of the variables are known to be the same, in the other, we have two unknowns and would need both equations from step 2 and 3 to solve. Possible, and simple, but harder to follow.

The simpler math case is the same starting temp. For example, we fired both until the barrel temp was uniform in both at 125F. So (Th-Tc) is fixed. So then we’ll say we’ll compare the temperature of both after 5min, so time, t, is also fixed.

Q is the heat transferred then in those 5min from each barrel. Q=UA(Th-Tc)t, and we know the heat transfer coefficient U is constant, the temperature difference between the starting temp of the barrel and the ambient air (Th-Tc) is fixed, and time t is fixed. The only difference between the inputs for the two barrels is the area A, and the difference in area will yield, proportionately, the difference in heat transferred in that time t, which is Q. Area is larger for the larger diameter barrel, such Q for the larger diameter barrel must be larger - which means it is expelling heat to the environment faster than the smaller barrel.

Such, we’ve shown mathematically a larger surface area expels heat faster than a smaller surface area. So larger diameter barrels cool faster than smaller diameter barrels.
 
There’s no magic to how to increase barrel weight and surface area. Barrels are cylinders - they only have two dimensions, length and diameter. Within those, we can pick D&L behind and in front of the gas block.

So intuitively, a “govt profile” carbine length gas, 16” barrel with a .750” gas block and nominal muzzle, meaning a short length and skinny diameter behind the block, and a relatively long length of skinny diameter in front will be light. An Hbar profiled carbine gas, 16” barrel with a .750” gas block will be heavier, as everything is the same except extra diameter behind the gas block. Same skinny nose, but a fat ass. Change that by ONE MORE step to an Hbar contour with midlength gas system, 16”, you increased the length behind the gas block where the diameter was bigger, so it’s heavier still. Change another single step to a .936” gas block heavy profile, midlength gas, 16”, you increased diameter in front of the block, so it is heavier still. Take another step change to a .936” gas block, heavy profile, midlength, 18” Barrel - you added 2” to the front, so it gained more weight still...

Keep adding length and diameter behind and in front of the block until you get to a 29” straight contour single shot barrel without any gas operation for a HP Match Rifle - you’ve added enough steel to that original barrel design that you’ve tripled the weight.

No magic to it. Anyone who remembers high school geometry can make very close estimates on the mass difference, because all we’re talking about is adding or removing annular volumes.
 
Such, we’ve shown mathematically a larger surface area expels heat faster than a smaller surface area. So larger diameter barrels cool faster than smaller diameter barrels.
The thing that my brain keeps having trouble grasping is that this part of it doesn't include "assuming equal mass".

Here's how my primitive caveman brain sees it:

Surface area grows in proportion to the square of the linear dimensions. The mass/volume grows in proportion to the cube of the linear proportions.

If the larger barrel is twice the diameter of the smaller barrel, the larger barrel will have four times the surface area, but it will have eight times the volume or mass.

This tells us that the larger barrel will have eight times the mass and therefore 8 times the heat energy, but only four times the surface area via which to remove that heat.

Therefore, the smaller barrel will cool faster.

This is why I'm a lover, not an engineer:D
 
When you talk heavy, I always think HEAVY. Been years since I saw one, and cannot find a photo now, but does anyone have a reference for the barrel on the "Colt Light Machine Gun"?

latest?cb=20170310184353.jpg
 
I don't recall anyone using the M16a1 for a pry bar but with the three prong flash hider and the M16 pistol grip, it made an excellent tool for removing the baling wire straps on C ration cases.
We had a recruit in my Basic Training company that bent two M16 barrels on the bayonet range though and finished the cycle carrying a 2x4 except when actually shooting on the firing range.
The problem with the old duck billed flash hiders wasn't bending barrels, it was breaking off one of the three prongs. That is what I have read and heard. Don't know if it is true or not but it seems to make sense.
 
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