AR-15 Long Range Questions

[grampajack]

I'm all for saving where possible. And I understand tight budgets. But some things aren't worth not doing right.
A fast Google search and I found upper vice blocks for $21 to $25.

I didn't reply to him on that as I was dumbfounded.
I know there's comments on the web about being able to put ARs together with almost no tools. But it seems to me if you're looking to build a precision rifle at least spend a few bucks on the most important ones. Or at least borrow them.

I would feel just fine using pieces of cutting board or blocks of hardwood. With all the different receivers out there now there are relatively few that will take a vice block anyways, and it's certainly better than those ones you just attach to the takedown lugs.

 

[farmerboy78]

An 8 twist is great! I run a 8 twist white oak with 77gr nosler cc magazine length... if he runs the 77gr tmk, he will get 80gr bc and magazine length rounds... he needs to buy a rock river A2 lower with their national match trigger already in it... <$300... that would leave enough money for a good upper from white oak and have a nail driver! Have sent this directly to him and he didn't respond. The best thing for him in my humble opinion.

 

[Varminterror]

An 8 twist is great! I run a 8 twist white oak with 77gr nosler cc magazine length

What do your 1,000yrd groups look like?

 

[MistWolf]

PSA lower- $130
23" barrel- $200
Stripped upper- $64
Total so far- $394

So what else do I need? Just the bolt and bolt carrier, handguard, and gas block? I should be able to find them for the $300 remainder correct? Any recommendations on a bolt carrier/ bolt?

BCM has redesigned their upper receiver to be more precise, stiffer and better quality than other mil-spec uppers. They have demos on sale for $80. If you're gong to use a heavy barrel, you should use a stiffer upper to reduce flex from the weight.

Is that a complete lower?

A stripped upper needs a complete BCG, barrel nut, gas block, gas tube, charging handle and free float handguards.

Don't worry about an upgraded trigger yet. Just thoroughly clean all the parts, lube them completely with grease and install. Then put a pile of rounds through the AR. This will do two things- It will smooth out the factory trigger and will give you experience towards uprgrading to the right trigger (and other parts) for you.

Don't try to assemble the upper using wood blocks. It can be done, but it's also an easy way to damage the upper. Getting the right tool for the job is cheap insurance.

Now, go assemble your rifle and get to shooting. You can change or upgrade what you need to as you go along

 

[grampajack]

BCM has redesigned their upper receiver to be more precise, stiffer and better quality than other mil-spec uppers. They have demos on sale for $80. If you're gong to use a heavy barrel, you should use a stiffer upper to reduce flex from the weight.

Is that a complete lower?

A stripped upper needs a complete BCG, barrel nut, gas block, gas tube, charging handle and free float handguards.

Don't worry about an upgraded trigger yet. Just thoroughly clean all the parts, lube them completely with grease and install. Then put a pile of rounds through the AR. This will do two things- It will smooth out the factory trigger and will give you experience towards uprgrading to the right trigger (and other parts) for you.

Don't try to assemble the upper using wood blocks. It can be done, but it's also an easy way to damage the upper. Getting the right tool for the job is cheap insurance.

Now, go assemble your rifle and get to shooting. You can change or upgrade what you need to as you go along

What exactly are these redesigns, and where is the evidence that they do anything substantial? The proof is in the pudding they say, and pretty much everyone makes all kinds of claims that are hard to prove or disprove. I just really fail to see how one milspec upper could be substantially different from another, assuming both were in spec inside and out.

 

[entropy]

I actually have read all 6 pages, and this is my advice, jmar; Get a decent lower, Geissle trigger and solid A2 buttstock; then, 1.) 16 in. 1:9 barreled upper with keymod rail, and a red dot on it. 2.) 24" 1:7 barrel with good 6 power optics. No, not 6x, 3-18, 4-24. 3.) Tubbs upper with a 29" barrel and all the trimmings; 20 Deg. rail, etc. This will go over your budget. But, as many people who have experience with rifles of each type you want have been trying to tell you, one setup isn't going to do it all. I personally would buy an AR in M16A2 style and be happy with 600 yards. I've done shoot houses with them, and 600 yard match shoots.I know I can do that, because I did it with issue A2's and M855 ball, with the issue iron sights. (Though I'd scope it now, I'm not 25 anymore.)

 

[jmar]

Okay I won't clamp it in with towels, I have no AR to examine to find what the best method of installation is. But i'm certain I don't need all sorts of specialized tools. And yes Hokie I have shot past 80 yards before, I even mention that in this thread. I shot 1000 with a 22-250 only months ago. The goal of this rifle is to be what precision shooters call a trainer. Since I am new to long range shooting I need a trainer. A trainer in my definition is something with cheap ammo, low recoil, and usually semi automatic. After this gun I will be getting a bolt action rifle. A Mk 13 Mod 0 .300WM to be exact. But since the .300 WM is such a brutal cartridge to shoot it is necessary to develop the proper shooting skills beforehand so no flinches or other bad training habits are developed. Hence this gun.

And as I said previously again, I have done many projects my entire life. ASSEMBLING an AR does not intimidate me in the slightest. Here is a picture of my Mosin Nagant which I did all the work on. A project that required pins, vices, drills, welders, grinders, sanders, files, tap and die, etc. I just am saying this so we can drop the whole tool subject and get back on topic. http://imgur.com/a/zOfI4



I did not make this thread to get underhanded snark every post. Let's keep it on the topic of building a good AR. If you disagree with what I want that is totally fine, go ahead and comment with constructive criticism. However that does not mean I need to listen to it and do exactly that. There's over 100 replies to this thread and I appreciate every single one of them, but since there are 100 I cannot do everything advised, everyone has a different opinion on what i should do. I have read them all multiple times and have heeded their information. Please don't think that just because I haven't directly replied to you I think what you had to say is wrong. I have a text document on my computer with many notes and over 100 links to potential parts I might buy.

So let's get back on subject, my last question which I am still ignorant of is will a 1:8 twist reliably stabilize rounds up to my desired maximum firing range of 1000 yards. And the barrel in question is not a low quality one. It's on sale for $200 with a normal price even higher than the black hole barrel on Ritch's site. So if it will work it will be a huge save to my budget.

 

[grampajack]

Okay I won't clamp it in with towels, I have no AR to examine to find what the best method of installation is. But i'm certain I don't need all sorts of specialized tools. And yes Hokie I have shot past 80 yards before, I even mention that in this thread. I shot 1000 with a 22-250 only months ago. The goal of this rifle is to be what precision shooters call a trainer. Since I am new to long range shooting I need a trainer. A trainer in my definition is something with cheap ammo, low recoil, and usually semi automatic. After this gun I will be getting a bolt action rifle. A Mk 13 Mod 0 .300WM to be exact. But since the .300 WM is such a brutal cartridge to shoot it is necessary to develop the proper shooting skills beforehand so no flinches or other bad training habits are developed. Hence this gun.

And as I said previously again, I have done many projects my entire life. ASSEMBLING an AR does not intimidate me in the slightest. Here is a picture of my Mosin Nagant which I did all the work on. A project that required pins, vices, drills, welders, grinders, sanders, files, tap and die, etc. I just am saying this so we can drop the whole tool subject and get back on topic. http://imgur.com/a/zOfI4



I did not make this thread to get underhanded snark every post. Let's keep it on the topic of building a good AR. If you disagree with what I want that is totally fine, go ahead and comment with constructive criticism. However that does not mean I need to listen to it and do exactly that. There's over 100 replies to this thread and I appreciate every single one of them, but since there are 100 I cannot do everything advised, everyone has a different opinion on what i should do. I have read them all multiple times and have heeded their information. Please don't think that just because I haven't directly replied to you I think what you had to say is wrong. I have a text document on my computer with many notes and over 100 links to potential parts I might buy.

So let's get back on subject, my last question which I am still ignorant of is will a 1:8 twist reliably stabilize rounds up to my desired maximum firing range of 1000 yards. And the barrel in question is not a low quality one. It's on sale for $200 with a normal price even higher than the black hole barrel on Ritch's site. So if it will work it will be a huge save to my budget.

If your definition of underhanded snark is people trying their dead level best to help you despite your bad attitude and absolute disregard for their questions and suggestions, then yea I guess you've gotten a lot of that.

I also can't even begin to imagine what you found off topic in this entire thread. What you're wanting violates the laws of physics and economics, as EVERYONE has tried to tell you repeatedly. If you don't like the answer to your question then that's no one's fault but your own. People have made many great suggestions on ways you can build a "good" AR, but you're not looking for a "good" AR as you put it, you're looking for a magical unicorn gun that doesn't exist in the real world, and certainly not anywhere near what you're willing to spend. Just for perspective I recently built a RECCE/SPR style 16'' that is more or less along the lines of what you're trying to achieve, or as close to it as possible, in that it's supposed to go from point blank to long range. Although my definition of long range is making half MOA shots out to 300 yards. That's where the AR really shines. Could I ring a gong at 1k on a calm day? Probably, and certainly very close if not all the way (not sure where my bullet goes subsonic, but it would be close). But here's the thing, I'm about 4 grand into it, and the major expense was the glass. Getting glass that can go from point blank to long range is not cheap, and I never could have afforded to do it if I didn't have sources, and the only reason I was willing to do it is I know I can sell or trade the components, especially the scope, for enough to get my money back out of them.

So I know exactly what you're trying to do, I know exactly what it takes to get there, and I know exactly what is necessary to end up with a rifle that's good for anything in the end. I'm not making **** up to thwart you or belittle you. I'm trying to save you from throwing away your money on a fools errand that will, in the end, do neither of the two things you want it to.

 

[Varminterror]

A trainer in my definition is something with cheap ammo, low recoil, and usually semi automatic.

A "trainer" rifle should match your primary. Since your primary is a bolt gun, your trainer should be a bolt gun. A semiautomatic is almost NEVER used as a trainer behind a bolt gun for precision rifle competitors or military marksmen. The only semiautomatic "trainers" I've ever seen used, or used myself, are backing a semiauto primary with a similar manual of arms.

will a 1:8 twist reliably stabilize rounds up to my desired maximum firing range of 1000 yards.

No. A 1:8" twist won't reliably stabilize heavy bullets meant for mag length loading and 1,000yrd shooting. Sure, jack wagons on youtube can throw hundreds of rounds to make a half a dozen hits with a 1:9" 16" carbine and a 50grn bullet, but if you want to do it reliably, you'll want a 1:7" twist 24" barrel and the right bullets for the task. As I have said at least twice in this thread, you'll need to be shooting the 73 ELD, 77 SMK, or 75/77 VLD. With a 24", a 1:8" will be marginal at best, with a 20", you won't be stable at 1,000yrds. A 1:7" will get you to 1,000yrds with one of these 4 bullets.

Knock your expectation down to 600yrds and your options open up a lot more, and that sniper barrel you're so proud of will be fine. 1,000yrds is incrementally more demanding.

i'm certain I don't need all sorts of specialized tools.

You're wrong. Yes, you do need specialized tools. You need action blocks and a barrel nut wrench, which are AR-15 specific tools. If you use a carbine stock, you need a castle nut wrench. In addition, you will need roll pin punches & starters, a torque wrench, wrenches for your receiver extension and muzzle device, wrenches & drivers for your optic mount & grip screw, pin punches, slave pins (shank end of drill pits work), and a vice to mount the blocks. If you want consistent lock up, you'll also need a modified lug lapping cartridge.

Slapping a Mosin into a sporter stock isn't a "build" of a rifle any more than changing a tire or changing oil on a truck constitutes a build of a truck. If you are as handy as you claim, you'll have most of the tools on the list above already, or SHOULD have them. The AR specific tools can be bought for $50 all in.

If you're too cheap or too broke to buy $50 in tools to properly build your rifle, then you're too cheap or broke to shoot 1,000yrds. You'll spend thousands of dollars on ammunition in pursuit of this task to become and remain truly proficient at 1,000yrds.

 

[bangswitch]

I see no purpose in a .223 caliber as a "trainer" for 1000 yard shooting. The 22-250 you have would be better for that, it has the velocity to keep those tiny pills moving well enough to still have any hope of accuracy and/or consistency at that distance. I'm still in the Grendel camp if you are set on an AR for distance shooting. The BC and heavier bullet gives it the legs that the .223 is short on. As for a budget, count on at least a grand for a decent shooter, not counting the scope; add another $650 and you can get one that works for those distances. You do need a vise block for the upper .receiver, otherwise you risk tweaking the upper when you torque the barrel nut. As an example, here is the build list for my AR, and it's a guaranteed 1000+ yard gun, and it has yet to malfunction in any way since I built it; close to 750 rounds in the last year. All the ammo I shoot are my own loads, using AA brass and 123 AMAX and 123 SMK.

Odin Works 20" 1:8 button rifled, SS barrel, 6.5 Grendel, guaranteed 1 MOA accuracy (and it is)
Odin Works BCG
Odin Works adjustable gas block All that is $480 so far
Precision Firearms LMD brake $85
Mega forged A3 upper and lower receiver, $250
CMMG upper/lower parts kits, I forget the $$ but not much
VLTOR Gunfighter charging handle
Spike's rifle length gas tube
Geissele HSNM DMR 2-stage adjustable trigger $279
Geissele Mk8 M-LOK Rail $225
Magpul ACS carbine stock $90
Standard milspec buffer tube, spring and buffer
The scope I'm using is a Vortex Viper HS-T 6-24x50 $640
Warne 20 MOA scope mount, $130
Alexander Arms Grendel magazines x4 around $100

That comes to around $1500, and then add the optics and mount and you come to $2270. You can go cheaper on the trigger, rail, muzzle device, stock, and a few other parts, but you can't really cheap out on the barrel and BCG if you want a consistently accurate gun of any caliber

 

[Varminterror]

Warne 20 MOA scope mount, $130

That's a Burris PEPR in the picture - have you changed to the Warne?

 

[MistWolf]

What exactly are these redesigns, and where is the evidence that they do anything substantial? The proof is in the pudding they say, and pretty much everyone makes all kinds of claims that are hard to prove or disprove. I just really fail to see how one milspec upper could be substantially different from another, assuming both were in spec inside and out.

I did a quick search to find where I'd read that BCM had made some changes to stiffen the upper but it eludes me. However, "the inside diameter for barrel extension slightly undersized for a tighter fit to the barrel and a more accurate rifle" and BCM recommends using a heat gun on the threaded bore before installing the barrel.

BCM had been buying upper receivers from OEM suppliers but ran into problems. BCM was rejecting nearly 50% of the upper receivers because Picatinny rails or inside dimensions were out of spec. BCM made the decision to contract a machine shop make uppers to their drawings and quality control processes. BCM also specified that the Inside Diameter for barrel extension be made slightly undersized for a tighter fit to the barrel which should improve accuracy.

This information is based on a thread C4IGrant started on M4Carbine

 

[MistWolf]

jmar, a 1:8 twist barrel is a good choice, but according to doppler test performed by Sierra, the 1:7 twist stabilizes longer bullets better

 

[grampajack]

I did a quick search to find where I'd read that BCM had made some changes to stiffen the upper but it eludes me. However, "the inside diameter for barrel extension slightly undersized for a tighter fit to the barrel and a more accurate rifle" and BCM recommends using a heat gun on the threaded bore before installing the barrel.

BCM had been buying upper receivers from OEM suppliers but ran into problems. BCM was rejecting nearly 50% of the upper receivers because Picatinny rails or inside dimensions were out of spec. BCM made the decision to contract a machine shop make uppers to their drawings and quality control processes. BCM also specified that the Inside Diameter for barrel extension be made slightly undersized for a tighter fit to the barrel which should improve accuracy.

This information is based on a thread C4IGrant started on M4Carbine

I like that. Up until now, the only nice fitting uppers I've found were from Vltor. Barrel goes in freezer, upper gets the heat gun, and then...mallet! A few good whacks gets her in just fine.

................................................................................

On the tools, I really do have to protest a little against the prevailing opinions. You don't absolutely have to have all the fancy tools to get the job done. They sure do make things easier, but if I only had to build one I wouldn't go to the expense. I would get an armorer's wrench and improvise everything else. I might be persuaded to get the upper vice block if it was offered by a company I was already ordering parts from and didn't have to pay additional shipping. But that's only if I didn't have an old cutting board or some hardwood blocks laying around.

Since he has a friend with a torque wrench, all he really needs is the three prong wrench end, assuming he goes with a Model 1 or similar handguard. And he won't need a castle nut wrench since he's using an A2 stock, or a lower vice block for that matter.

But what he absolutely does need is a clevis pin to use as a slave to install the pivot pin. That is the most essential AR tool next to the armorer's wrench. And luckily costs about .75 cents.

 

[farmerboy78]

What do your 1,000yrd groups look like?

Have never shot it past 810yds, and begin to have issues past 750yds

 

[tarosean]

At some point, you need to quit beating your head against the wall an let them be free....

 

[Varminterror]

Have never shot it past 810yds, and begin to have issues past 750yds

That's what I would expect for a 1:8". Hence my repeated recommendations to the OP to get a 1:7".

 

[MistWolf]

On the tools, I really do have to protest a little against the prevailing opinions. You don't absolutely have to have all the fancy tools to get the job done. They sure do make things easier, but if I only had to build one I wouldn't go to the expense. I would get an armorer's wrench and improvise everything else. I might be persuaded to get the upper vice block if it was offered by a company I was already ordering parts from and didn't have to pay additional shipping. But that's only if I didn't have an old cutting board or some hardwood blocks laying around

Here's the thing- If you build one AR, at the very least, you are certain to modify it or others. The upper receiver block makes many chores easier to perform, such as muzzle device swaps, replacing gas tubes, mounting optics, changing barrels or installing free float handguards. The lower receiver vise block is also very handy for a variety of tasks. The vise blocks are so handy that I'd buy and use
them even if I never planned to ever build an AR

 

[Jim Watson]

Advertisement from Vortex scopes, 1000 yards under $1000. But not with an AR.
https://www.facebook.com/vortexoptics/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf

 

[bangswitch]

That's a Burris PEPR in the picture - have you changed to the Warne?

Yeah, after my first long range day. I was running out of scope adjustment around 900 yards (and the HS-T has 32 MOA available past the 100 yard zero). I was holding over at 1000 yards, and finally ran out of scope entirely at 1125. That's why I was recommending a 20MOA scope mount to our intrepid LR shooter. He'll need it shooting a .223 at that range

 

[WrongHanded]

After scanning this thread, I'd like to make a suggestion:

Take $250 to a pawn shop or three, and find a 12ga pump in good condition. Get some range time with it. Home defense issues solved.

Then buy the 1,000 yard rifle you really want. I don't know much about long range shooting or ARs and their customization, though I've dabbled with both. But when I read ".223" and "1,000 yards" in the same sentence, I new it'd get interesting really fast.

If the used shotgun doesn't fill your "cool factor" bar enough, get an AR for home defense, and then customize it later once you're better than the rifle is at 500-600 yards. I had a Rock River A2 at one time, which had a surprisingly nice trigger and was apparently a 1 moa rifle (though I was never good enough to confirm that with the iron sights). But perhaps you're already shooting 1 moa at 600 yards, I don't know.

 

[Varminterror]

Yeah, after my first long range day. I was running out of scope adjustment around 900 yards (and the HS-T has 32 MOA available past the 100 yard zero). I was holding over at 1000 yards, and finally ran out of scope entirely at 1125. That's why I was recommending a 20MOA scope mount to our intrepid LR shooter. He'll need it shooting a .223 at that rangeView attachment 361692

I like the Warne mount - it's about .2" shorter than the PEPR, which fits my eye position and natural cheekweld much better.

I fought the same issue yesterday with one of my 10/22 Chargers. I was shooting 325 with it, with a CHEAP Nikon Buckmaster 6-8x40mm. Even on a 20MOA EGW base, I run out of scope, so I end up holding 3mil actual (4.5mil on the reticle), and the drop moving out to 350 takes me out of my reticle entirely. Luckily, for that one, I have it in a set of Burris Signature Zee's, so I'm going to swap insert to as much compensation as I can get without giving up a 100yrd zero - should be able to pick up another 10moa with the offset inserts, which should get me out to 375yrds with it, 400 if I zoom out to 12x (SFP reticle) or more going lower mag - but I know my group sizes will grow when I zoom out that far, so I figure 400 will be about as far as I can make it with this scope on top. Which, of course, 350-400 is plenty far for a 22LR. Hard to do much with a ToF over a full second (1.3) and impact energy around 50ft.lbs. The ding on the plate is barely audible, and it certainly doesn't swing!

 

[jmar]

I just want to do an update. The rifle I went with is a Remington 700 ADL in 30-06. I'm going to get a Rock Creek barrel for it in .308. Don't get me wrong I still appreciate everyone's replies to this post, and I'm still interested in doing this AR build. But I wanted something that will be more dedicated and consistent for shooting to 1000. I didn't want to go with a 24" AR, so when the time comes it'll probably be around 20". And when the time comes I will just bump this thread and continue the conversation.

 

[Varminterror]

Worst post yet...

Know anything about blocking mag boxes and fitting feed rails?

 

[jmar]

Worst post yet...

Know anything about blocking mag boxes and fitting feed rails?

Not yet.