Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by SigSour, Oct 24, 2017.
A couple of 22 rifles and a few bricks of decent ammo would do the same.
Honestly, Look at AR's in pistol calibers. Recoil is very low. The sound is the biggest factor. In an enclosed area it makes it much worse.
The noise is really intimidating.
Not a lot of time to prepare for a Goon coming into the house. Hearing protection would probably not be used.
My 2 cents worth.
There's advantages to both. The shotgun is definitely cheaper and at close range it's a showstopper. However the recoil is punishing and intimidating to a new shooter. Will they be able to handle it in a crisis with little training?
The AR15 will serve well at close range but will also be able to reach pretty far downrange. With it's low recoil and a red dot a new shooter could get the hang of it pretty quick.
Price makes the shotgun a tempting choice but I'd probably go with an AR15.
Saw a statement I'd never read before and it may be applicable in this situation:
"The rifle is Queen of the battlefield, but the shotgun is King of the castle"
I've got about everything in my safe but an AR. I don't own one but I can pick one up and use it.
People who don't shoot aren't likely to want to train or use anything that has a lot of recoil or muzzle blast. That right there is going to keep people from wanting to train with an AR or shotgun. I was shooting my friends new AR the other day and it had a very unpleasant crack using some kind of odd ball muzzle break. Yes, I was wearing my electronic ear muffs but it was still unpleasant. I can't imagine what it would be like without ear protection.
I'm not sure why people discount pistols for home defense. Maybe the internet has changed the way people think about home defense, I don't know. What I do know is something like a Glock in the hands of someone who has trained with it is going to do the job. I've seen police trade-ins for less than $400. Even a new one will be about the same price as an AR.
Your best bet is a pistol. I have about 5 of those and could easily train and arm everyone in my immediate family. Actually. I've already trained a few of them.
My mainline defense is a 1911 with plenty of loaded mags and ammo. Of all the rifles and shotguns I've owned in the last 50 years I just can't think of anything better for SD.
A buddy and I used to do a little experiment with a 20 ga H&R. When we’d have a new shooter with us, we’d let him/her shoot the single shot first with light target loads. Girls hated it, and guys would try to act tough but it was clear it rattled them more than they expected. Next we’d hand them either an 870 pump or an 1100 semi. Most of the girls would be very reluctant to try again, thinking it would kick as much as the single shot. Guys, not wanting to show fear, would cautiously try again and you could almost always see the smile after the first shot when they realized the heavier guns weren’t going to punish them. So I’m not so sure a 20 ga single shot is a great choice for non-shooters, especially if buck-shot or slugs would be used.
Neither is really ideal, the shotgun has a lot of recoil, not a lot of capacity, and you can still miss with it. An AR has very little recoil, a lot of capacity, but is REALLY loud inside with the shorter barrel you want inside a house.
There is more to SHTF than combat.
A 12 ga shotgun is a great short range defensive weapon but it can also put meat on the table. From deer to dove and anything in between you can hunt with it.
I would not go with a shotgun for the reasons already mentioned. A pistol in untrained hands is more of a liability than a long gun. I would go with the AR and get them to the range.
I'll add my vote to the pistol being less effective in the hands of a total novice (and possibly more likely to hit a friendly or themselves). AR all the way
If you'd have read the OP, you'd have noted he was asking "What to buy to hand to family when they show up at the door unarmed?" There is no 'get them to the range', it's showtime! You are either wealthier and/or kinder than I. I have a few milsurps that I could hand out, they can butter-knife brigade it from there.
If im not mistaken,,,,
The context of the OP is that the others being armed have little to no experience with guns and are in the confines of a house.... which means with doorways, hallways, corners and max distance of maybe 30 ft.
That's pretty much the opposite of what long guns were designed for and you're expecting inexperienced people to over come all that in a high stress situation.
It's kind of like taking brand new driver and sticking them in a crew cab long bed truck, then having them drive around and park in a tight mall parking lot on black friday.
Well, you're at least half right; they wouldn't be indoors all the time, though. CQB indoors is something very few know how to do anyway. If they have no gun experience they definitely don't have CQB experience. At that point their function is to distract invaders while I take care of the problem. It would be best to train them before the situation, but per the OP's post, not happening,
My usual response to those who say "When that happens, We'll just come to your house!" is "Not if you value your life. I can train you now, but it'll be too late then."
The OP never mentions anything about not being indoors.
In fact, the OP specifically says "....is smart enough to know she'd need one should some goon come climbing in through her window."
Again, if I'm understanding the context of the OP, it's about defending the house from the inside with people of little to no experienced.
That recipe doesn't call for a long gun, imo.
As for range time there is no better time than the present. I take a new shooter any time I get a chance.
Just my personal experience, of course, but when working with new shooters it seems much easier to get them to keep a rifle pointed in the right direction, than a handgun (I am more worried about their chances to hurt themselves or friendlies, and less worried about their ability to hurt bad guys, so...)
I do agree with the 1st part.
However I differ of the 2nd part because I'm interpreting this as he's not 'working' with new shooters to develop them into shooters.
I'm invisioning more along the lines of (I'm over simplifying) putting them in different rooms or areas of the house with the instructions of ' call me 1st because you barely know how to shoot... if you fall a sleep and wake up (or whatever.. come back from going potty etc) with a bad guy coming into the house, point shoot, duck and run'. We're talking probably no more than 15 feet away. Most bedroom aren't even 15ft
With a long gun and inexperienced people in that type of scenario, barrel is getting tangle in a balnket... knocking over lamps.. running into door jams as they try to distance themselves potentially blowing part of their face off, or yours.
A long gun pretty much requires 2 hands and facing the attacker. A lot to expect of the inexperienced with obsticles in close quarters.
With a handgun, you could even tell them to get in the coat closet and shoot who ever opens the door with out first saying "Olly olly oxen free".
Just my opinion
So the basic requirements are---
Good likelihood of hitting the target
I'd go with a 9mm pistol or .38 DA revolver. A Browning High Power or S&W Model 10 would be my recommendation---very high quality and plenty of used ones on the market (but not in CA!).
Even a 20 gauge pump shotgun could have an intimidating kick even with low recoil buck shot. If your family will train with it, that would be better.
An AR doesn't have the recoil of a shotgun, but the manual of arms is more involved. If your family begrudges the time required then a 10/22 would be my choice
My take is a bit different:
Assume that you're going to have to train everyone who you are going to be willing to shelter, whether they think they're trained now or not. Training should include manual of arms, basic marksmanship, and rudimentary team tactics.
If you're going to arm your newbies with an AR-type rifle/pistol/SBR, get a S&W 15/22, a few spare magazines, and a bunch of .22 lr ammo as training tools. A 10/22 has a manual of arms that is different enough from an AR that this element of training becomes difficult...the 15/22 is light, cheap, and functionally very similar to an AR in .223/556.
If you choose to arm your newbies with handguns, focus on cheap, plentiful revolvers. In .38 special/.357 magnum. Buy or load up a bunch of light target rounds for training. Keep a supply of heavier rounds for serious work.
I wouldn't recommend focusing on shotguns for this scenario. They are very effective at shorter ranges, but as mentioned above, ammo is heavy, and recoil is stout. From a training perspective, though, they are hungry, and learning to feed a defensive shotgun takes time and practice, something that you probably won't have much of.
In any case, keep your supply chain simple, and your tools very much alike.
Here's how I have personally implemented this advice:
For handguns, I have a variety of .38 special/.357 mag revolvers, with tons of practice ammo, and a fair amount of ammo for serious work.
I've found that AR controls seem pretty overwhelming for rank newbies. I went a different way; I use a 10/22 as a training tool that leads to proficiency with M1 carbines, mini-14s, mini-30s, etc. This class of long gun seems simpler, lighter, and easier to manipulate than an AR, and newbies (especially women) seem to take to them more easily. My supply chain for the M1 carbine is long, and my guns are reliable. For the newbies I'm likely to shelter, this seems to work OK.
For the experienced, though, ARs and autoloading handguns are the focus. No question about that in my mind.
The OP had a different take: The S has hit the Fan, and these people, whom he has tried to get out and learn the basics but they refused, are now showing up at his door saying " OK, OK, we were wrong, arm us!" There will be no time for training, and even if there were, then would not be the time for the sound of gunfire, not to mention attempting to secure the training area while trying to train them. You might have a few moments to tell them, "Here's the safety, here's the mag release, here's the trigger..."
With what I have, my solution is to hand them a Mosin with a full mag, bolt open and tell them, "close the bolt, aim, and pull the trigger, open the bolt, repeat if necessary." Then show them that with an empty one, and how to load it back up loose, or with stripper clips. I'd love to be able to have a pile of S&W 10's, or even Armscor Colt copies, but I just can't afford that, let alone piles of AR's, or even S&W15-22's.
Fortunately, I've warned off those few (on my wife's side) who eschew firearms, and my side of the family is well prepared; they'd be welcome if they showed up, for they would be well armed.
Actually, Entropy, the OP's "take" was this:
Emergencies come in all flavors. If the situation doesn't allow live-fire practice, then much of the training on, say, a revolver's manual of arms, marksmanship fundamentals, and team tactics can be done dry. As you noted, dry training in the Mosin's basic manual of arms is also pretty easy.
If the emergency does leave a little time and a location to train live, then do as much as conditions allow. The usefulness of the resulting new shooters to the OP's team will definitely improve. Start out with ammo and calibers that new shooters can handle, even if that ammo might not be optimal for serious work. Move them up to heavier stuff as quickly as their skills improve.
Just having a loaded gun isn't really the point; being able to use that loaded gun effectively likely will be. (Well, there might be situations where the mere sight of a 91/30--preferably with bayonet fixed, loaded OR unloaded--would chase off some bad guys following a disaster. I might have to rethink this!) There's no doubt that while an M44 is "ignorant-peasant-proof", fires an effective round, and is pretty cheap, the muzzle blast and recoil will keep new shooters from effectively putting rounds on target with one until they get some real trigger time.
I'm not really interested in providing loaded guns to anyone who I don't think has the skills to use them safely. And who has a chance of gaining the skills to use them effectively. Even in an emergency. Maybe especially in an emergency.
Maybe it's my inner soft hearted hippie, but I'd reckon I'd rather try and equip my loved ones and family to survive rather than let the fancy toys rot away in the safe or cache or wherever. At some point, it doesn't really matter whether you've handed your newb relative or brother in law an AR or a single shot rifle....you've helped them to survive and help the family survive.
I don't post much, but there are certainly different schools of thought. It really depends on the scenario. Clint Smith and Jeff Cooper are noted names in gun lore, here are there thoughts:
On the move ...
"The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down."--Clint Smith
Close range ...
"The purpose of the pistol is to stop a fight that somebody else has started, almost always at very short range."--Jeff Cooper
But both of these philosophies assume the individual has trained with the rifle and pistol. In the case of a family member that hasn't already purchased their own firearms, there are two big hurdles.
The first is the introduction of firearms and the willingness to posses/own, securely and safely store and maintain. I'm sure some here have those family members that refuse to own or possess firearms. The OP seems to be past that gate, so it's a matter of secure storage and maintenance. Even in a home of adults, an emergency weapon needs to be secure enough that it doesn't wander off. It also needs to be maintained, in the event of an emergency grabbing the rusty shotgun from behind the bathroom door isn't going to do much good.
The second hurdle has been touched on several times in this thread, that's familiarity and training. One Saturday trip to the range isn't enough when stress is high. You've got to get them to take a few trips to the range.
As to selection of a home defense or zombie apocalypse firearm, it's driven based on the specific scenario.
For home defense one person might be ok with a shotgun while a smaller person might be intimidated by the recoil - this goes right back to our training requirement. If the individual isn't comfortable with the firearm, they aren't going to train with it. When it comes down to actually defending your life, rounds on target count - a lot! 10 rounds of .22LR CCI stingers (or mini-mags) delivered to the face or chest are much more effective than a misplaced shotgun blast.
For moving from Point A to secure Point B a rifle of some type is much more effective than a shotgun. Here I would have to agree with the quote from Clint Smith. I'd choose an AR. I'd probably default to iron sights though you could argue a dot makes good sense if you have the maintenance regimen to ensure the battery is monitored and replaced regularly.
Both. Get a decent AR now while they're cheap and then buy a shotgun. Now's the time to buy ARs and there are always cheap (but decent) shotguns to be found. And for the shotgun I'd maybe even suggest a decent side by side. Exposed hammers or not, you can't really get a gun that is simpler. And I'd throw a decent semi auto pistol into the third spot, maybe something like a Ruger SR9 or S&W SD9 which are both known to be reliable, accurate enough, and inexpensive. If your budget is really tight a Hi Point 9mm wouldn't even be a bad choice, but buy the best you can.
I'd buy them in that order. And if you still feel like you need more, start back at the beginning of the list. Just make sure YOU use the firearms enough to ensure reliability and find ammo that works well. And make sure you have enough ammo stocked up for whatever scenario you are planning for.
I want to say AR because you can't short stroke it or bungle reloads as easily, but really you would be better off with something like the cheap EAA DA/SA 9mms for self-protection duty (~$300). If things are that bad where you need a small fire team at longer ranges, you will either a) be dead and not care or b) be able to peruse the selection lying around on the ground to resupply as desired.
Separate names with a comma.