Ar-15, what is the soldier doing?

[38snapcaps]

I have an AR so I pay close attention to the rifles shown in the newscasts from Iraq. I saw one the other day that stumped me and I still can't figure it out:

The soldier has the mag in the rifle and you see him pull the charging handle twice. He then bops the bottom of the mag. You can clearly see he then pushes the bolt release button because the rifle jumps forward a little. He then commences firing.

If the loaded mag is in place pulling the charging handle the first time would have chambered a cartridge, the second time would have ejected the round and inserted another. But what kept the bolt back where he needed to release it? How could the bolt be locked back in the first place with an inserted full magazine? Why did he push up on the mag, if it wasn't all the way in, it surely would have fallen out while he was working the action.

This has been driving me nuts for four days now!

 

[RNB65]

Sounds like he was having problems getting it to strip the first round out of the mag and into the chamber. I occasionally have a problem with new 30rd mags getting the first round to chamber. I have to lock the bolt back, hit the bottom of the mag with my hand, then release the bolt. Never had that problem with a 20rd mag.

 

[El Tejon]

I would speculate:

1. smokestack;

2. He overloaded a magazine, putting 30 rounds instead of 28, and the weapon FTF the first round which he observed.

 

[erict]

Sounds weird????

I can get a mag to hang in my AR's without being fully inserted "IF" they aren't full. If they have all 30 rounds in them the mag should fall out.

 

[Oldnamvet]

I don't have any idea but your comment about "bumping" the bottom of the mag reminded me of my time in RVN. We always used to either rap the bottom of the mag on our helmet to loosen up the rounds and the spring to be sure we didn't have a jam or push them down and let them snap back up (only loaded 18 in the 20 rd mags) a couple of times for the same purpose. Of course this was before we loaded our weapons.

 

[erict]

WOW, I've owned AR's for 3 years now and never knew 28 rounds were actually supposed to go into a 30 rounder, thanks ET.

This actually makes perfect sense because I usually have to grab the heck out of the charging handle and pull hard, then let it snap forward pretty good to get the first round to feed when loaded to 30 rounds.

 

[mljdeckard]

I've never had a problem filling any mag with 30, but I ALWAYS tap on a hard surface before I load, this might be why.

 

[ny32182]

Sounds to me like his mag just wasn't seated all the way in. That would explain the lack of a round chambering on the first time or two cycling the charging handle. Then, he would manually lock the bolt open, tap the bottom of the mag to get it seated all the way, then hit the bolt catch to chamber a round.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

We always used to either rap the bottom of the mag on our helmet to loosen up the rounds and the spring to be sure we didn't have a jam or push them down and let them snap back up (only loaded 18 in the 20 rd mags) a couple of times for the same purpose.

A lot of folks (myself included) would do that in Iraq, though I think usually knocking the backside of the mag against the helmet.

I've never seen that taught in a military schoolhouse, and I always wondered if it was a word-of-mouth good idea, or just something that kids (myself included) saw in Vietnam movies and thought seemed a good idea.

-MV

 

[DougW]

The only problem I have ever had was with the SA80 steel mags. The follower was a tad too tall, and I used the old dremmel and shortened them a little. They all load and work with 30 rounds now. I would throw a 28 round mag away, or figure out why it will not function with 30 rounds.

My son is in the sand box now, and he has never said anything about downloading his mags. He has his personal CAR15 in my gun safe while deployed, and I know it functions with 30 round mags loaded with 30 rounds.

As for the soldier in the news, he probably didn't have the mag fully seated in the first place. Just my opinion though.

 

[Byron]

My tour in Nam was 68-69 and we loaded 18 rounds to the 20 round mag as OldNamVet said. Field conditions was very dirty and anything to make sure the round chambered. I hit the forward assist each time as habit. I never had a jam. Byron

 

[Fosbery]

It always cacks me up when I see US servicemen banging magazines on their heads. I gave SA80 mags a little tap on my leg or the side of my rifle before loading them - never felt the need to bash in my own skull though

I was taught that if magazines were left loaded for any long period of time, the rounds and gubbins inside would start to settle and get comfortable, like sand moving to the bottom of a jar of pebbles. Tapping the magazine would shift things around and make them easier to move. This was proper training, not a rumour or some such.

 

[Nightcrawler]

never felt the need to bash in my own skull though

Well, if you do it on your helmet like we always did, it presents less of a problem. Heh.

I fail to see why no one can apparently design an M16 magazine that'll function with the number of rounds that fit into it. This "download by two" mantra is nonsense. Surely the engineering challenge of making a magazine that will work when loaded to capacity can be overcome?

After all, AK-47, FAL, G3, Galil, etc. magazines all seem to work when loaded to capacity.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

The soldier has the mag in the rifle and you see him pull the charging handle twice. He then bops the bottom of the mag. You can clearly see he then pushes the bolt release button because the rifle jumps forward a little. He then commences firing.

You couldnt see if the bolt was open or closed when he charged the gun. It could be that he placed a loaded magazine in the rifle initially with the bolt locked open, but failed to hit the bolt release. This is fairly common to see when a person is under a little stress and has to do an emergency reload. Now, if he were to pull back the charging handle only partially with the bolt open, the bolt would not go forward. A person would realize that the bolt was open after he felt no tension against the charging handle, thus he would hit the release.

On the 28 vs. 30 round issue in magazines... Its been my understanding that loading a magazine with 28 rounds was not to reduce the number of malfunctions from the magazine... But because it is harder to insert a fully loaded magazine into the magazine well with the bolt closed. When you are doing reloads which require a certain amount of manual dexterity under stress, IE tactical reloads, repeatedly slamming the bottom of the magazine to seat it is undesirable.

 

[ocabj]

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#downloading

Q. Shouldn't I be loading my mags with a few less rounds? If I load them to capacity doesn't that cause reliability problems?

There are three stories about how this got started:

1. If a 20 round magazine was disassembled and reassembled with the spring connected to the follower backwards, it wouldn't feed reliably when fully loaded due to the spring binding in the mag. Downloading the magazine to 18 became a habit in some circles "just in case," though eventually this problem was discovered, and solders were instructed never to separate the follower from the spring, which virtually eliminated this problem.

2. Many magazines can be loaded without obviously excessive force to 21 rounds, and because ammo was issued loose in boxes during the early Vietnam era, this happened frequently. The result was often that the first round wouldn't chamber because it was held too tightly in the magazine. This is not a good thing in a firefight, so early in the history of the M16 it became habit to teach shooters to load 18 in a 20 rounder just to be safe. Again, the root cause was eventually addressed, and ammo began to be issued on stripper clips, which eliminated the need to count individual rounds when loading mags.

3. Some tactical squads download their back-up magazines by one round to make a tactical reload (which is done with a round chambered and the bolt forward) easier. This is because of the reduced upward pressure on the rounds.

#3 is probably the only real reason to consider downloading your magazines, though it is generally not necessary.

 

[hksw]

Which network was this on?

It sounds (to me) as if the mag in the rifle was either not fully inserted or the follower was bound slightly. First pull of the bolt didn't result in chambering a round, second pull confirms (no round ejected). I'm thinking that it might have been possible that you missed him activating the bolt stop during the second pull to lock it back after which he raps the mag then releases the bolt.

 

[38snapcaps]

HKSW-Hmmmm, you might be right, he could have done that with his left hand. I'm not sure where I saw it, I think Fox News. It's the scene where several of our guys are shooting over a wall, and this GI turns to his left, toward the camera.

 

[Onmilo]

Sounds like he had some of that wonderful sand packed into the bolt lock recess and it was causing the bolt catch to engage each time the weapon cycled.
The rifle misfed the first round and from what I understand, new soldiers are now taught to NOT use the forward assist to force the cartridge into the chamber.
They are now taught to tap-rack-bang
Tap the magazine to ensure it is fully seated.
Rack the action to clear the offending cartridge.
Bang, if all is well this is the sound the weapon makes.
If all is not well, drop that magazine, insert a fresh one and repeat the procedure.

 

[GratefulOne]

This was the standard way to clear malfunction when I was in. It was taught in basic training. It is called SPORTS:

Slap the magazine

Pull back the charging handle

Observe the round clearing the chamber

Release the charging handle

Tap the forward assist

Squeeze the trigger

 

[Fosbery]

You shouldn't be slamming magazines in Die Hard style. A firm push is all that is needed, and won't damage the magazine or the gun.

 

[carlrodd]

in basic our drill sergeants always screamed at us about the hollywood evil of banging mags on helmets prior to loading...how it helped nothing, and was only hard on the magazine. i bought it, until i got to iraq and had to use every measure to ensure that the microscopic silt of the fertile crescent didn't get me killed.....banging magazines, forward assist every time, salt over the shoulder etc.

 

[Fosbery]

But why the helmet? Surely it's quicker to tap it on your weapon or your leg or chest, and dosn't shake your view or give you a headache.

 

[AJAX22]

But why the helmet? Surely it's quicker to tap it on your weapon or your leg or chest, and dosn't shake your view or give you a headache.

because the force on the magazine is almost unimportant when you're trying to get it to unbind, what you need is the sharp jaring effect of a metal on metal contact to get the spring/follower/rounds to unbind.

the object is not to force it in harder, or simply wack it hard on something, too much force will dent the mag, all you need is the rapid transfer of a small amount of force to unseat any grit, corrosion, or gremlins your mag may have developed since the last time you checked it.

If you're hitting your mag hard enough on your head to give yourself a headache or shake your vision up, then you are putting WAY to much force on that poor piece of aluminum.

 

[648E]

He overloaded a magazine, putting 30 rounds instead of 28

Ha, not to pick on you but...

They ARE called 30 rd magazines for a reason.

 

[lurkersince03]

My HK mags work flawlessly, even fully loaded. Yeah, they're pricey compared to the standard AR mags, but I got a (better than gun shop) deal on them at a gun show for $40 a mag (gun shops were selling them for $65).