JPG19
Member
I second Spike's Tactical. Check them out; top notch stuff.
AR 15's...
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Maple_City_Woodsman
Member
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2011
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- 430
To Me, the brand bashing and price wars are very confusing.
There are a LOT of AR assemblers, but very very few manufacturers of AR uppers and lowers (though that number is slowly growing). Basically, the internal parts are 95% of the difference between a "top tier" and "entry level" ARs.
The problem to my thinking is, "top tier" internal parts kits are under $100 - yet the difference in price for finished rifles is FAR more than that. The only other difference is that "top tier" assemblers pay to have their bolts put through a battery of test, such as 'MPI' testing.
That sounds very fancy and high end ... but those tests really are just aftermarket quality control tests to make sure there are no invisible flaws in the part, something that is essentially a waste of money provided the original manufacturer actually did their jobs correctly.
Some like to split hairs over barrels, but the fact of the matter is that any companies barrel can shoot better than most shooters, so that is a non issue.
In the end, that only leaves you with a few options for explaining the huge price gap between various makers: Paying for the brand name (which is essentially a sham), paying for the insurance of extra QC tests (which are normally unnecessary), or some combination of the two.
I was in the same place as you a few years ago OP. I wanted an AR, but didn't know what the differences were, or how much I should pay. I was fortunate enough to test fire examples of rifles from all 'tier' levels - and guess what - They all worked just as well.
In the end, I went with a DPMS, and purchased a spare lower parts kit and bolt, just in case something broke - an earth shaking travesty that the AR snobs ASSURED me would happen... 5 years later, and thousands of rounds fired in FIELD conditions though 6 different types of magazines, I have yet to have any kind of malfunction or need any of my spare parts.
The gun, an optic, spare parts, and pile (30+) of mags cost me about between 1,100 and 1,200 all said and done. I suppose I COULD have spent that or more on a gun alone, but I don't see what I would have gained by doing so.
There are a LOT of AR assemblers, but very very few manufacturers of AR uppers and lowers (though that number is slowly growing). Basically, the internal parts are 95% of the difference between a "top tier" and "entry level" ARs.
The problem to my thinking is, "top tier" internal parts kits are under $100 - yet the difference in price for finished rifles is FAR more than that. The only other difference is that "top tier" assemblers pay to have their bolts put through a battery of test, such as 'MPI' testing.
That sounds very fancy and high end ... but those tests really are just aftermarket quality control tests to make sure there are no invisible flaws in the part, something that is essentially a waste of money provided the original manufacturer actually did their jobs correctly.
Some like to split hairs over barrels, but the fact of the matter is that any companies barrel can shoot better than most shooters, so that is a non issue.
In the end, that only leaves you with a few options for explaining the huge price gap between various makers: Paying for the brand name (which is essentially a sham), paying for the insurance of extra QC tests (which are normally unnecessary), or some combination of the two.
I was in the same place as you a few years ago OP. I wanted an AR, but didn't know what the differences were, or how much I should pay. I was fortunate enough to test fire examples of rifles from all 'tier' levels - and guess what - They all worked just as well.
In the end, I went with a DPMS, and purchased a spare lower parts kit and bolt, just in case something broke - an earth shaking travesty that the AR snobs ASSURED me would happen... 5 years later, and thousands of rounds fired in FIELD conditions though 6 different types of magazines, I have yet to have any kind of malfunction or need any of my spare parts.
The gun, an optic, spare parts, and pile (30+) of mags cost me about between 1,100 and 1,200 all said and done. I suppose I COULD have spent that or more on a gun alone, but I don't see what I would have gained by doing so.
Waywatcher
Member
A reputable one, or at least something you could cite.
An interesting aside, when is an AR-15 a DPMS?
--If you built a lower with a DPMS LPK and slapped on a Spikes upper, would you call that DPMS?
--If you bought a DPMS whole rifle and replaced the LPK and the BCG with one from BCM, would this rifle still be a DPMS?
--Would a Colt with a DPMS BCG be DPMS?
Waywatcher
Member
Right, but would it still carry the stigma of a DPMS?
Wahoo - I'm glad to see someone on here agree with me on BCM
Maple City - I agree with you for the most part. Countless people bash DPMS for some reason - I used the DPMS kit in my build - and while I have not used it much - I have never had an issue. They have been in the AR game for alot of years so that says something about them. If they were making crap products they would have been out of business years ago.
On a customer service standpoint I purchased that lower parts kit and it was missing a single spring - I called them up and a gentleman was very friendly and shipped the missing spring out the same day and I received it 2 days later. I have nothing but good things to say about them.
My standpoint on building my rifle was this - I want quality products that will last my lifetime. Heaven forbid our economy collapse one day and we have to depend on our rifle for survival - I'm not saying this will happen and I dont wear a tin foil cap - but if for some rare reason it did - I want something that I can depend on for thousands and thousands of rounds - thus I chose the BCM Cold Hard Forged barrel
Just my .02
Maple City - I agree with you for the most part. Countless people bash DPMS for some reason - I used the DPMS kit in my build - and while I have not used it much - I have never had an issue. They have been in the AR game for alot of years so that says something about them. If they were making crap products they would have been out of business years ago.
On a customer service standpoint I purchased that lower parts kit and it was missing a single spring - I called them up and a gentleman was very friendly and shipped the missing spring out the same day and I received it 2 days later. I have nothing but good things to say about them.
My standpoint on building my rifle was this - I want quality products that will last my lifetime. Heaven forbid our economy collapse one day and we have to depend on our rifle for survival - I'm not saying this will happen and I dont wear a tin foil cap - but if for some rare reason it did - I want something that I can depend on for thousands and thousands of rounds - thus I chose the BCM Cold Hard Forged barrel
Just my .02
RatherNotSay
Member
Do you even have a sense of how the manufacturing process works on ANYTHING? Many companies, in any manufacturing field, have their products tested in house or out. The manufacturing process is not perfect and a barrel, car, home appliance does not come out the same every time. Whether it's a weld, hair line fracture in the metal or electrical contact those tests are very helpful and it's rather ignorant to say that the manufacturing of said products has no holes to fill.
JustinJ
Member
Quote:
What kind of source are you expecting?
Okay, again, I was speaking of the general reputation of DPMS and made that clear from my post. To my knowledge there has been no test of a statistically significant number of DPMS rifles against other makes so reputation is the best we have to go on.
No, you would call that a mixing of parts.
Single anecdotal experiences mean nothing. In regards to ARs, and many other manufactured products, the primary differences in parts between different manufacturing methods, materials and QC ultimately comes down to statistical differences in reliability and durability. A single DPMS rifle may run just as long and well as a single Colt. But if you compare 1,000 from each manufacturer the DPMS guns are are probably going to have significantly more functional and part failures. Is the increased chance of reliability worth a higher price? Thats for each to decide.
What kind of source are you expecting?
Okay, again, I was speaking of the general reputation of DPMS and made that clear from my post. To my knowledge there has been no test of a statistically significant number of DPMS rifles against other makes so reputation is the best we have to go on.
No, you would call that a mixing of parts.
Single anecdotal experiences mean nothing. In regards to ARs, and many other manufactured products, the primary differences in parts between different manufacturing methods, materials and QC ultimately comes down to statistical differences in reliability and durability. A single DPMS rifle may run just as long and well as a single Colt. But if you compare 1,000 from each manufacturer the DPMS guns are are probably going to have significantly more functional and part failures. Is the increased chance of reliability worth a higher price? Thats for each to decide.
Waywatcher
Member
How do you know this general reputation is true? Is it because it's repeated often enough by people such as yourself, without citation or sources?
Aren't all AR-15s a mixing of parts? Take for example, a BCM AR-15. They stamp their name on it but it has parts from many, many different manufacturers.
Would a DPMS rifle, purchased whole, with a replacement BCM bolt become a parts gun? Or would it require the entire BCG to qualify as mixed parts? Or maybe it would require a new barrel as well? I see a lot of grey area...
geez some people need to get off their computer and shoot some ARs before their fingers get arthritis from typing and they never even get to shoot the gun they have such a huge opinion on!
you can build a very clean shooting AR that will hold 1 moa and fire reliably within your price range... most of the companies on the market are builing great guns, find a brand in your price range, and research the possible issues with that brand. There are many brands and the only legitimate complaint is gas key staking.. so grab a punch and steak it in 6 seconds.. I don't need to pay someone $200 extra bucks to check my gas keys, I can check them!
you can build a very clean shooting AR that will hold 1 moa and fire reliably within your price range... most of the companies on the market are builing great guns, find a brand in your price range, and research the possible issues with that brand. There are many brands and the only legitimate complaint is gas key staking.. so grab a punch and steak it in 6 seconds.. I don't need to pay someone $200 extra bucks to check my gas keys, I can check them!
JustinJ
Member
A bad reputation is generally earned after enough people complain of issues. Funny how Colt, DD, BCM managed to escape a bad reputation from people repeating each other often enough.
By that arguement the majority of products out there with multiple machined parts probably won't qualify as being made by the company selling them. Some companies however do machine all or most of their own parts or at least the key ones prone to failure when of lesser quality. Companies also have different standards of what they will accept in the parts they purchase from third parties such as to what is often reffered to as milspec.
over gassed
bolt failures
improperly staked castle nuts(or even worse lock tighted)
various fire control failures
misalinged sights
There are in fact a number of other potential failure issues with varying degree of occurence. I prefer a gun that comes without potential issues but that's just me. In reality for most civilians these issues aren't a huge deal given very few of our lives will ever rely on our guns but i still like knowing i have the best possible. Just don't tell me all ARs are equal.
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Zerodefect
member
Yes, BCM sources thier parts and assembles thier uppers. They may change sources from time to time. They keep thier sources secret, and they keep thier quality control very, very tight.
But both of my BCM uppers are flawless. I expected a few assembly marks, but found none. laugable because i can't build an upper without scratching it somewhere. Not that it matters.
And I haven't met anyone who has had trouble with thier BCM upper. (except for someone who was running weak cheap ammo in a 14.5" middie, not enough power in that ammo to cycle well)
BCM is the real deal. Good stuff.
Is it ok to start bashing Oly, Panther, Shrubby, Cerebus yet????
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I'm seeing some conflict in opinion here. The PSA setup from page one that two or three recommended is very appealing to me.
If you guys could say post a link to a Spikes RRA and BCM setup similar, I'll consider them all. I have 2-3 months to think about this before I buy it. I really want to get a quality gun that will last, has nice features, decent warranty and has some of the more desired features for accuracy, ruggedness/durability and easy shooting.
If you guys could say post a link to a Spikes RRA and BCM setup similar, I'll consider them all. I have 2-3 months to think about this before I buy it. I really want to get a quality gun that will last, has nice features, decent warranty and has some of the more desired features for accuracy, ruggedness/durability and easy shooting.
HammerheadSSN663
Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Messages
- 317
Am i reading the Palmetto State ad correctly?
1K for a complete gun PLUS the Aimpoint?
Is that a LaRue mount?
That is a CRAZY low price!
1K for a complete gun PLUS the Aimpoint?
Is that a LaRue mount?
That is a CRAZY low price!
dprice3844444
member
armalite makes the full 1 piece upper free float barrel.get 1/9 chrome lined,gisselle 2 stage trigger.you can then add fold down front/rear sights for scope use.keep it simple
RatherNotSay
Member
can I see the paper?
spazzymcgee
Member
I'd go with Palmetto or Del-ton. Damn good rifles. If you buy a del-ton as a parts kit, and then a Spikes lower, It'll run you about $569.http://del-ton.com
StrutStopper
Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2011
- Messages
- 636
I haven't seen anyone mention LMT here. When researching parts for my first build they stood out as having a good rep. I picked up a carbine length complete upper for $400 (did not include BCG, Charging Handle, or hand guards.)
Damon555
Member
Gotigers.....that scope is an elcheapo Simmons whitetail classic 6.5-20. I bought 2 of them and am fairly pleased. They only get used in good light for shooting prairie dogs.
JustinJ....That rifle has been prairie dog shooting several times. Over 3 or 4 days it gets shot probably 1000 times without cleaning. I've gotten that thing hotter than the dickens and it still pumps out empty shells. Never once have I had a problem with it. I read all the Internet bashing and was scolded for choosing that particular brand. The Internet is not a reliable source on many subjects. All I can say is mine has been 100%.
JustinJ....That rifle has been prairie dog shooting several times. Over 3 or 4 days it gets shot probably 1000 times without cleaning. I've gotten that thing hotter than the dickens and it still pumps out empty shells. Never once have I had a problem with it. I read all the Internet bashing and was scolded for choosing that particular brand. The Internet is not a reliable source on many subjects. All I can say is mine has been 100%.
ugaarguy
Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
- Messages
- 13,828
You're correct on price. The mount is an Aimpoint QRP2 which comes with the Aimpoint PRO sight. The Aimpoint PRO at a little over $400 with the included mount is a screaming deal. If the rifle is as good in reality as it is on paper then it's a really screaming deal.
I just built a few stripped lowers with Palmetto's lower parts kits & M4 butt stock assemblies. If those parts are any indication Palmetto is selling great stuff.
hardluk1
member
mshootnit really, 3" at 200 yards. I have watched several box stock RRA models shoot well under an 1" at 200 yards. I have not shot mine at 200 yards as it is still only 2 weeks old and only has 20 rounds fired but my low cost 595 dollar s&w m&p 15 sport with its 16" barrel 1-8 twist will shoot under an 1" at 100 yards with some 55 gr ar223 ammo from wally world. I would hope to cut that with a heavier match grade ammo in the near future. Only add on is a 20 year old mid power 2.5 to 10 scope . That I thought should be about average after seeing the RRA rifles shoot. if mil spec shoot larger groups than that I am glad I bought the s&w. Every thing metal made under one roof. No parts gun. And I ain't a sw guy.
There ain't any perfect ar rifle.
There ain't any perfect ar rifle.
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