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AR-180B vs. Kel-Tec SU-16

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by twoblink, Oct 14, 2004.

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  1. twoblink

    twoblink Member

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    err.. the title is a question and a statement at the same time..
     
  2. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    [​IMG] 'Nuff said.:cool:
     
  3. Domino

    Domino Member

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    I have shot neither but have held both in gun stores. While I do prefer the gas system on the AR-180b I could not tell any real difference as far as sturdiness goes. They both have a lot of polymer and are very light rifles. The Kel-Tec does have a price advantage, espeacially since many see no need to pay the price for an AR-180b and would rather spend a little more on a quality AR-15. All in all, they both would make great alternatives to a traditional AR but the Kel-Tec has a creative nitch. I was considering both of those rifles at one time but I prefered the qualities in the M17 and that was my pick. That bieng said, I would have probably picked the Armalite next.
     
  4. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    AR-180B.

    Really only because Kel-Tec pistols have really turned me off to the brand as a whole. No other reason just personal preference. I also like the gas system in the 180.

    Chris
     
  5. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    Just buy the darn AR-15 and get it over with. I was a HE-Man AR hater at one point as well but in all honesty they really are a good little rifle with lots of fun add ons. They really are like adult Legos and really fun.

    Chris
     
  6. twoblink

    twoblink Member

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    Basically, if you all haven't noticed, I'm determined to get a ranch gun, that's NOT an AR.

    Eugene Stoner was just that, a stoner..

    It seems that the AR180B has QA/QC problems in the past, and the SU-16 just isn't designed for a high number of rounds (I've read comments like, 50 shots later, too hot to shoot, smoke smell etc..)

    So both have their pluses and minus..

    So currently, the horse race looks like:

    AR180B
    SU-16
    Mini-14 Ranch
    M1 Carbine..
     
  7. 45R

    45R Member

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    Whats an AR180B? :eek: Pics please
     
  8. twoblink

    twoblink Member

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    [​IMG]


    Full Review
    http://www.cruffler.com/review-January-02.html

    it's basically an AR, done right.. it doesn't go to the toilet where it eats, like the AR, no "BOING" sound when you shoot it because there's no main spring in the back, massive reduction in parts instead of the tumor looking forward assist that is utterly useless, (the bolt reciprecates, and so it's a positive forward assist as is) and the gas system is a lot cleaner and easier to clean.

    Or I can get an Inferiorly designed more expensive AR...
     
  9. Telperion

    Telperion Member

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    twoblink, you might want to look at the Robinson XCR once it goes production and if we hear some favorable field reports. And the AR-15 works just fine :neener:
     
  10. Langenator

    Langenator Member

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    IIRC, another reason for the original AR-18 (now the AR-180B) design was that the M-16/AR-15 was expensive to produce, due to the forged/machined upper and lower recievers. The AR-18 used stamped sheetmetal (ala the MP-40 and M-3 subguns and the AKM) to greatly reduce production costs.

    I'm not sure what drove the changes to the operating system.
     
  11. Oleg Volk

    Oleg Volk Moderator Emeritus

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    Can you get a short LOP stock for 180B?
    Can you get scope mounts other than the one attached to a cheap scope from Armalite?
    Can you get a flash hider instead of a muzzle brake?
     
  12. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    I've seen two AR-180s with a WEAVER or whatever it is rail ontop, one of which had an ACOG and stuff. :)
     
  13. Mannlicher

    Mannlicher Member

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    I have a great little AR180B. I have never shot a KelTEc rifle. I have owned a KelTec pistol. Based on that experience, I would not touch anything KelTec makes. Obligatory 'fluff and buff' indeed!
     
  14. DrDremel

    DrDremel Member

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    I would go with the AR180b. I was not impressed with the Kel-Tec. THe AR180b is better built in my opinion.

    Oleg, yes there are weaver mounts available that mount to the AR180b. I like the quick detach feature of the mount myself.
     
  15. moorerwc

    moorerwc Member

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    I might consider the AR180B if it had a chromelined 1/7" twist bbl. with a removeable flash hider and an available collapsible stock.

    -Chad
     
  16. Black Snowman

    Black Snowman Member

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    I've seen some Pre-ban 180s with folding stocks (one of the reasons for the mechanical changes from the M16) don't know if there are plans to introduce a AR-180B with one, but it would be nice.
     
  17. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    The SU has a pretty good trigger actually. I wouldnt call it anything to write home about but its certainly no worse then the AR-180 I fired. Two felt about the same. As far as Kel-tec's reputation...I thought they had AWESOME customer service?
     
  18. 45R

    45R Member

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    damn its not CA legal....:(
     
  19. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    I'm certain the SU-16 is CA legal...
     
  20. 45R

    45R Member

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    I meant the AR-180
     
  21. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    Oh...i knew that I was.....testing you!
     
  22. CBX

    CBX Member

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    I own a SU-16 and it is definatly not meant to be fired a whole lot things heat up rather fast. First time i took it out it got so hot that it would still burn you after you took it out the bag from the range 20 minutes later. Then again it was 101 degrees out side that day :)
     
  23. MrMurphy

    MrMurphy Member

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    If i needed the compactness, the SU would win, otherwise, the AR180B. Although the new Robinson XCR would probably rate over the 180B. :)
     
  24. twoblink

    twoblink Member

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    [​IMG]

    This one??

    Seeing as how Tamara and I see eye to eye on things, I think I should end my misery and just ask her for 5 recommendations, and pick the last one.. :D
     
  25. Matt Sutton

    Matt Sutton Member

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    twoblink,
    I bought one of the first 1000 AR-180Bs off the line for the retail price that they originally set. It was very reliable and accurate. It shot everything without a hitch, Wolf, handloads, etc. My friend bought a later production unit, and its chamber is very tight. It chokes on everything but US commercial .223rem. He's also experienced vertical stringing as the barrel heats up.
    I've made a little collection of posts that Armalite has made about the 180B on their own forum and ar15.com. These are out of context, but you'll still get the point. It's surprising to see Armalite talking down their own product.

    **********************
    Yes, we can make a gas system based on our AR-180 system, but we don't plan to.

    ArmaLite is the ONLY company that makes both the 15 and 18. We can use either system with the 15. Some people prefer the 18 system because less crud gets into the system.

    We choose not to make an 18 gas system for the 15 for 3 reasons:

    1. There isn't enough customer demand.
    2. The gas tube provides better accuracy. That sliding gas tube is the main reason the average 15 and 10 outshoot a FAL or M14 so severely.
    3. The fouling that bugs so many people is technically almost immaterial. The problem is that most shooters (especially in the military, where bad habits are reinfoced) clean obsessively. To the point of damaging their rifles.

    There's no real advantage to the system, and much disadvantage.

    We know that some with firm opinions will criticize these positions, but unless there's substantial customer interest in such a rifle we don't plan to build one.
    **********************
    We could, but we've looked at the Stoner gas system and consider it the superior system. The slip fit into the upper produces a more stable, accurate system than even our own 180 system so we don't figure on switching it.

    A better question would be: Can we put a Stoner gas tube system on a 180?

    We know that the carbon that comes into the upper of t 15 or 16 drives folks nuts, but it's very cosmetic. We're too hung up on getting every bit of schmutz out of the rifles.

    Relax and shoot already.

    As for the polymer lower, we know that many people prefer metal.

    Let's ask a question: If ArmaLite made the 180 with a forged lower and made some other changes like chromed bores (raising the cost of the rifle by about $100) would you be interested?
    **********************
    We don't plan to put liners in the 180 at the moment, but it's not
    out of the question.

    First, the polymer based rifle is intended as a general purpose
    device, not a service rifle intended for hundreds of rounds.

    Second, the handguard gets hot even with a liner and

    Third, the material used in the handguard doesn't fail until the
    barrel has hit a transformation temperature that basically destroys
    it. It handles 500 degrees, so the liner doesn't protect the
    handguard

    We'll do a temp/time curve and see what it looks like with and
    without a liner.

    We might use another successful technique that's sturdier than the
    liners: aluminized paint.

    If temperature becomes a really bad issue the rifle can be fired
    using the mag as a fore grip. Sounds stupid, but it's a technique
    used by the Army Reserve's Combat Match team, which the boss used to
    shoot on.
    **********************

    I sold my 180B and have an AR-15 on order. I recommend you skip the KT and the 180B and get an AR.
     
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