AR for farm patrol

[txhoghunter]

Ok I'm going to clarify a few things. Starting with Mav's comment, I did not "miss" the dog, not even close. After the 4 follow up body shots, we found my first round had hit the dog between the eyes. Considering the angle of the head and my firing position, it hit the skull at an angle and I am hoping that a high powered rifle will push through instead of ricochet. Currently, we have a few Remington 870's and they work well, I just don't like how long it takes to reload should I need to.

On to Bovice's comment, I don't know if you are, but I am not ex-military, nor a LEO, so as much as I train with transitions, I will be slower than most. Don't get me wrong, I AM keeping my Sig on my side and will, if I have to use it again without hesitating. However, I would like to kill these things before they are within pouncing range.

Matt, my problem with a scoped rifle is that 1) these are pack animals that are usually very aggressive and will attack rather than run when given the choice; and 2) I will be either on foot, or on an ATV for the most part, not inside a truck so the mag of an AR will not get caught so that really is not a drawback. A bolt gun will give me one shot and then the others are on top of me. Yes I know the .223 does not have the stopping power of a .308 but in this particular case, I would rather have 30 rounds of .223 as opposed to, if I'm lucky, 3-4 rounds of .308 out of a bolt rifle.

Thank you for all of the input and God bless

 

[Hatterasguy]

What about a mini 14 or that Kel tec 16 or whatever they call it. Both seem to be built for this kind of thing and light.

An M1 Carbine would also work pretty well, and is quite light and easy to carry.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

You could spend a lot less to have someone come out to trap them. If you are trying to justify a rifle purchase thats another story.

 

[ECVMatt]

I would look at some good Soft point ammo. I like the Winchester 64 Power points they are pretty tough and expand nicely.

AR does sound like a good choice for your situation. I would suggest you get one of the light weight carbines. Some of the others can get heavy.

I think it would be cheaper to shoot them yourself than pay a trapper or buy a trap. I don't think the trap would work more than once or twice and then you would still have a problem.

Good Luck

 

[redbullitt]

Sounds like time to do some hunting, or maybe some long walks with a rifle for sure lol.

I like the eotech with some soft points for this job. I have no problem hitting cans etc at 100 yards with mine AND it works great close up. I see no reason that you cant pick them off from 150 or 200 yards with it need be.

I have a rock river carbine with a 16.5 barrel that even when loaded is nice and light. VERY easy to tote around. Accuracy is plenty good enough too.
Something like that should work well for you.

Or maybe an AK variant if cash is tight?

 

[Dionysusigma]

I love my ARs--I'm on my 5th or 6th now--but in this case, for close-in vicious beasties that are difficult to intimidate, especially in a pack, an AK would seem like the better choice. Ranges inside 100m, tough builds and tougher spirits, and multiple targets that are likely to attack en masse seem to call for an AK in 7.62x39.

 

[Maverick223]

Currently, we have a few Remington 870's and they work well, I just don't like how long it takes to reload should I need to.

Saiga-12 (or 20)...problem solved! *Though I would stick with the 5rnd mags...the 10+rnd mags are unwieldy IMO.

 

[ECVMatt]

I wasn't going to bring up the AK thing, but since others did I will. They are plenty good out past a 100 yards or so, very durable, and have good power for puppies. You could add an Ulitmak gas tube scope mount and a red dot of some flavor and god help those dogs. It might save you some bucks and have the same effect as an AR.

 

[Erik M]

If you are only looking for a 'ranch gun' then 1k+ optics and 'designer' name brand AR's are nothing but a wasteful novelty. You would be fine with a Iron Site plain jane Bushmaster, DoubleStar, or CMMG.

 

[Justin Holder]

Yes I know the .223 does not have the stopping power of a .308 but in this particular case, I would rather have 30 rounds of .223 as opposed to, if I'm lucky, 3-4 rounds of .308 out of a bolt rifle.

Don't assume more bullets will make up for poor marksmanship or an under powered cartridge.

Just last year I killed 3 dogs with 3 shots from my M70 .243win. just as fast as I could work the bolt, they were all at around 100 yards and the second two were running shots.

It doesn't matter how many bullets you have in the magazine if you can't place them effectively on target.

 

[txhoghunter]

I did not mean to sound like I was going to use the extra 25 rounds for spray and pray purposes, I know as well as anyone that shot placement is key in any situation, hunting or defensive. The point I was wanting to get at is that I would like to have the quicker follow up shots, without having to worry about reloading because even the fastest reloads cost precious time in a situation like these.

 

[788Ham]

Stick with the 12 ga. shotgun, you won't have to worry about skipping rounds off their skulls. # 4 buck in the guts will turn any of them into mush, they'll get tired of running in their own gut pile, they'll quit!

 

[Wolf 117]

Once upon a time I was in your shoes. Back then it was solved by a 180 series Mini 14with a couple of 30 rd mags using 55 gr FMJ. A Mini 14 won't do you wrong but if you go with the AR buy good quality and see what it likes to eat. I have a Bushmaster that so far likes every thing, Wolf included. Like someone said before and for what you will be using it for a 16 in with 4 to 6 position rear stock. you can also add a mag pouch for the stock or carry an old Alice pouch with a couple extra.

FMJ always worked for me but you have a wide range of cartridge choice. 55 to 77 gr has worked well for me. 5.56 always put 'em down for me and the high capacity mag helped on the tough one. I had a wild chow charge me one day returning form hunting and it took 3 rounds of .308 168 grain to keep him down. He wanted me real bad. I have found wild dogs hard to kill at times.

Never had a .45 bounce of a skull though, but I had a mongrel charge me at my property fence several times at night for several weeks and never got a shot at him. One night he made the mistake of showing himself and not immediately retreating and between balancing the flashlight and the 12 gauge he took 3 rds of 00 buck and a .45 to finish him off. This dog weighed around 100 lbs.

Good luck in what you choose and stay safe.

 

[daorhgih]

The word "Mossberg" comes to mind:

Why mess around?? I mean, .223 is only .22cal plus .003. And fast, yes, but ØØ buck is a lot of lead-hail with a single pull. You say, " ... Yes I know the .223 does not have the stopping power of a .308...", to which I reply, "Get an AR-10 or clone." Why are you limping into this confrontation with a bolt-action rifle, anyway?

 

[taliv]

AR is well-suited to your stated goal. it is practical, lightweight with rapid follow up shots and accurate enough to shoot a dog easily at 200 yrds, even with irons.

i'd keep it lightweight. mounting a flashlight seems imperative, should you want to walk around at night. a good sling, since you want to keep it with you easily when doing other things. i'd slap an aimpoint on there as well.

 

[mattlove444]

Jumpin on with the AK crowd. It's perfect for this. It does the job on hogs out in burnet and those are some tough suckers. Put a gas tube rail and a Eotec or trijicon rmr and your in business. And a .30 cal is a lot better than a 556 in my opinion. Just make a decision and stick with it.

 

[wrs840]

I wasn't going to bring up the AK thing, but since others did I will.

An AK folder was my first reaction too, if someone actually thought they needed a rifle as a walk-about defense against dog packs.

Les

 

[X-Rap]

Wow I can't remember if the op is going to Kandahar or shooting feral dogs??

 

[10-96]

Txhoghunter- There's been a lot of great suggestions here, a few others... suffice it to say my opinion differs.

Keep it simple man. You aren't likely to be an extreme high volume shooter. Farms get big, sometimes batteries (for fancy sights, lights, etc) can be a long ways off, and the barrel thing... Please don't go below 16"- to keep it legal, you will have to have an extended flash suppressor or a tax/permit to keep it legally. Honestly, for farm use- the most simple CMMG Discount Bin, DPMS, Double Star, low end Rock River Arms, even an Olympic Arms will work just fine. Point is- you don't need to spend over $750 for one that will suit your needs. A 1:9" twist bbl is very common and will suit your needs fine and dandy. Those 2x to 4x circle reticle or diamond reticle shogun scopes are fantastic for yote/dog rifle scopes (I just don't recommend Simmons). If you use a varmint bullet (it'll say on the box) from 45 to 55grs- putting the circle or reticle on the critter will nearly guarantee the critter will at least go down or slow down enough to finish it off. I'm a LEO, Veteran, and an old farm kid- I don't know everything, but I think I do have at least a valid idea or two that's pertinant to your needs. Keep it simple.

 

[lloveless]

In Tn we had a similar problem. Solved with the neighbors getting together and hunting down the pack with AK'S and Rem 700's.
ll

 

[jsimmons]

I would go AR-15 too. It's accurate, light enough, and you can get them pretty cheap now, and a .223 *will* penetrate - I have a hard drive I shot that proves it. You can also use/carry 20-round mags instead of 30's, and you'll loose a little of the bulk (the 20-round mag won't stick out of the gun further than the pistol grip).

 

[Tirod]

What's not being said is why the AR is better. It's not the ammo or how cheap it is, it's about having the controls work with you to get a sight picture quicker.

The AR will do a better job. Avoid the folding stock gimmick - it takes time to unfold. I'd drop the quad rail and just use a regular handguard. Light mounts are available to put it out at the end of the muzzle where it's not shadowed by the flash hider.

A simple A3 upper for a red dot, everything else standard, Pmags for reliability, a light at the end of the barrel, and a comfortable sling you practice with to shoulder the arm. You can walk around locked and loaded, shoulder the weapon, push the safety off with the grip thumb, and fire repeatedly until the dogs get the idea.

Contrast that with unfolding and locking a stock, pushing the safety off with the trigger hand, THEN getting a sight picture, and I becomes obvious: the AK doesn't help, it hinders. You don't get the weapon to shoulder and off safe as quickly, unless you practice a lot more.

The AR was designed for new combat soldiers to operate it more easily, faster, and more safely with other soldiers in close proximity. You can shoulder and fire an AR faster with less training than an AK - unless carry with the safety off. The AR also reloads faster with less training because the mag release can be pushed by the trigger finger, and the bolt hold open bumped by the off hand after inserting. AK? no bolt hold open, mag release not close at all, reloads against a close bolt, and you have to charge the weapon with the trigger hand against a loaded magazine to get it back up and running - with the safety off.

If you need quick shots, and reloads a possibility, the AR is faster and easier to learn. The AK is arbitrary and slows the user. The significant difference in design philosophy is that the western design supports the soldier and improves survivability, the combloc design relies on mass firepower; combat losses are just a tough fact of life. What's a few million lost when you have millions more?

I certainly don't have any complaints about the gas design, especially the bolt, but I think Stoner's design team had a better idea than Kalashnikov's. The engineer in charge of controls and user friendliness for the AR got a lot more right. You can use the tool easier, rather than have to learn to make it work right. Gun designs do improve over the years, putting all the controls in the right place at least starts a shooter out further ahead.

Seen a cell phone with rotary dial on the front? I don't think it would be faster, but the AK fanboys keep coming up with excuses.

 

[ny32182]

I would take an AR carbine, 16" if non-NFA; SBR w/can if NFA... Irons and/or Aimpoint, no magnifier, your choice of sling for walking around. Aimpoint will work in low light; is good for snap sight picture on a dog-size target out to 200+ yards easily, and I think I last turned mine off sometime in 2008... I don't know any farms too big for that.

If you think that these dogs are really so dangerous that reload speed after expending 30 rounds is a serious concern, I would also be taking an enclosed vehicle and some friends. Those must be some hardcore dogs.

 

[Rexster]

If I had your problem, in your environment, I would use either my AR15 (BCM upper, S&W lower with RRA internals) or Mini-14, with either my Leupold fixed-power scope or Aimpoint Micro T-1. Either weapon, either optic. If coyote hunters, and I know a few, are happy with these weapons, then so am I. When we retire, I hope we will be living on rural acreage.

I could/would also use a Marlin 1894C .357 Magnum lever rifle, probably with a similar optic, but perhaps with an XS Sights front sight with the white stripe. My formerly 20/13 vision is not what it used to be!

One of my LEO colleagues has done well against several pit bulls with his "grandfathered" S&W Model 686 .357 Mag duty pistol, and yes, we Texans remember that revolvers are pistols. (Look up Sam Colt's patent.) He is scared of dogs, they sense the fear, advance, and he performs the indicated response. He has not been bitten by any pit bull he has shot, though not all of them fell DRT.

I've not had to shoot a dog on duty, but then, some folks call me a dog whisperer, so I reckon I am communicating my willingness to kill the dogs well enough, and they sense that and depart. To be clear, though, a pack of dogs marauding in a farm area is a different kettle of fish than my urbanized patrol area; I would, if living on a farm, have to proactively deal with them, not merely shoo them away. I have stood by with a shotgun while an animal control officer darted and then noosed pit bulls. My employing PD's rules on carbine deployment are fairly strict and narrow in focus, with dangerous dogs not being one of the approved situations; therefore the shotgun. I would RATHER have the .223/5.56 rifle in my hands, but enough of my colleagues have shot dangerous dogs with shotguns for me to know that at close range, a shotgun will certainly stop a pit bull.

Last time I lived in a rural area with small livestock, and had to deal with bad dogs, I was still a kid in a non-gun household. It is heartbreaking to see animals being attacked by dogs, and then being limited to charging outside with a stick.

 

[Pony Express]

10.5” with a suppressor

That will be a LOT of paperwork and a pretty long wait. If you're set on a rifle, I'd stick with a 16" carbine with irons and a removable carry handle so you can add optics if you want. Irons will do you just fine, under 200yards .223 is a pretty flat shooting round so you dont need to worry too much about trajectory between 0-200yards.

However, with that being said, I personally would pack a 12 gauge...cheaper from the get-go and there is nothing that can quite match the power of 00 Buck, or even if you don't feel comfortable with that, then some slugs aughta do the trick