AR Question

[Bottom Gun]

An older friend of mine has asked me to help him find a good AR15 to replace his Mini-14. He wants a good varmint gun. I showed him my older Bushmaster and my Lewis Machine Tool and he likes the accuracy of both.

It has been a long time since I bought an AR and I heard that Bushmaster is now owned by someone else, Remington I think. Can anyone tell me if the Bushmaster quality has changed since the company was sold? Are the Bushmaster rifles the same good quality they were 10 years ago?

My friend also stopped at a gun shop where he looked at a Savage and asked me if they were worthwhile. He likes the trigger on the Savage. I really have no idea since I didn’t even know that Savage makes an AR now. Can anyone tell me about the Savage AR’s? Are they any good?

I’ve had experience with a few different brands including Bushmaster, LMT, Colt. Olympic, Palmetto Armory and Armalite and I’m steering him toward a Bushie, LMT or Armalite/Eagle Arms.

Can someone recommend any other decent quality AR’s in the $700 range?

Thanks!!!

 

[MachIVshooter]

Can someone recommend any other decent quality AR’s in the $700 range?

There are plenty, but not so much in the varmint rifle category. At least not what I'd consider up the the task, which is sub-MOA @ 200 yards for sure. He's probably looking closer to $1K or a bit more for a good bull barrel critter, plus another $150-$250 for a good trigger, and then glass. But it really depends on his accuracy requirements. I shoot praire dogs at ranges up to 800 yards (I use 220 swift for >400 yard work). We're talking about a ~2" wide target, so there's a decent precision requirement even at the <400 yard ranges where I use the AR in .223. But if he just wants to shoot chucks at 50-100 yards, any carbine will do.

This is mine, built on a billet steel lower I machined from scratch. Is an Aero Precision upper, PSA "premium" BCG, Wilson Arms 22" .223 Wylde bull barrel, Young manufacturing 15" vented FF hand guard, UTG "sniper" grip, DPMS oversize selector, standard A2 receiver extension with Luth-AR adjustable stock, Hyperfire 24-3G trigger, Pentax 5-15x 50mm scope, cheapie bipod. I think I'm into the thing for about $1,300 or $1,400 (obviously not counting the $950 can), got the scope on clearance. It will put 10 bullets on a silver dollar at 200 yards.

 

[cdb1]

A new Bushmaster is about the last AR I would buy. A Bushmaster made before Freedom group purchased them would be one of the first I'd buy.

Windham is owned by the original Bushmaster owner and is essentially an older Bushmaster. I like them.

 

[Bottom Gun]

A new Bushmaster is about the last AR I would buy. A Bushmaster made before Freedom group purchased them would be one of the first I'd buy.

Thanks for the info. That's exactly what I was wondering about. Do you know what changed to make a Bushie less desirable?
I'm suggesting a complete factory rifle to my friend rather than a build. I let him try my AR's with Armalite, Geissele, Wilson Combat and RRA triggers. He likes the less expensive RRA trigger as well as any. I'm thinking that I can put an RRA trigger into it for him for around $100 and if he can find a decent rifle that shoots as well as my older AR's, he'll be perfectly satisfied. His intended use is for coyotes. We are infested with the darned things here.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I'm thinking that I can put an RRA trigger into it for him for around $100 and if he can find a decent rifle that shoots as well as my older AR's, he'll be perfectly satisfied. His intended use is for coyotes. We are infested with the darned things here.

Have him look at this:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...upper-with-nickel-boron-bcg-ch-516446759.html

plus this

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...gpul-moe-rifle-edition-black-no-magazine.html

And possibly a drop in trigger. I highly recommend the Hyperfire, but nothing wrong with CMC or Timney offerings, and others.

 

[Hpi_jeep]

@MachIVshooter whats the weight of that rifle? what weight projo are you sending 800 yards? I am in the process of putting together another AR for the sole purpose of hitting prairie dogs at longer ranges. I am on the fence of going 22 nosler. You may keep me hearded in on the .223

 

[cdb1]

Thanks for the info. That's exactly what I was wondering about. Do you know what changed to make a Bushie less desirable?
I'm suggesting a complete factory rifle to my friend rather than a build. I let him try my AR's with Armalite, Geissele, Wilson Combat and RRA triggers. He likes the less expensive RRA trigger as well as any. I'm thinking that I can put an RRA trigger into it for him for around $100 and if he can find a decent rifle that shoots as well as my older AR's, he'll be perfectly satisfied. His intended use is for coyotes. We are infested with the darned things here.

They moved manufacturing to a Remington facility is my understanding, analogous to Marlin.

 

[MachIVshooter]

@MachIVshooter whats the weight of that rifle? what weight projo are you sending 800 yards? I am in the process of putting together another AR for the sole purpose of hitting prairie dogs at longer ranges. I am on the fence of going 22 nosler. You may keep me hearded in on the .223

It's 14.4 lbs without the suppressor.

I use 50 gr. V-max boat tail hand loads in the AR, but again, I don't use .223 past about 400 yards. .223 just doesn't have the velocity to take the really long shots, IMO. Much more bullet drop, much longer flight time during which wind can act on the bullets.

In the .220, 55 gr. V-max boat tails loaded to 3,950 FPS. The longest hit I've documented was 782 yards, which took 6 shots. My hit ratio is much better inside of 500, closer to 50% on calm days.

 

[Hpi_jeep]

It's 14.4 lbs without the suppressor.

I use 50 gr. V-max boat tail hand loads in the AR, but again, I don't use .223 past about 400 yards. .223 just doesn't have the velocity to take the really long shots, IMO. Much more bullet drop, much longer flight time during which wind can act on the bullets.

In the .220, 55 gr. V-max boat tails loaded to 3,950 FPS. The longest hit I've documented was 782 yards, which took 6 shots. My hit ratio is much better inside of 500, closer to 50% on calm days.

I misread, thought I read you were shooting to 800 with .223

 

[Varminterror]

Are the Bushmaster rifles the same good quality they were 10 years ago?

Bushmaster 10yrs ago was owned by the same company which owns them today. They did move manufacturing in 2010/2011.

I think there's a lot of popular Bushmaster hate, and some of it decidedly well-earned after the Cerberus Group's position following Sandy Hook, AND for their redirection of efforts towards the ACR and nearly abandoning the AR-15 (leaving that production to be sold out by DPMS and Remington, but frankly, the rifles are still good rifles. A buddy bought a Bushmaster Varmint Stainless Special two years ago which has shot just as well as my same rifle which was built in Windham.

I build my AR's, and those for many others, so my "go to" recommendation is to either build or have one built for you. Unless you're buying a $600 or less blasting carbine, you'll get far more bang for your buck by building or having one built than you would in buying a factory rig.

For factory rifles, I'd be prone to buy a Rock River these days to get the most out of the money, but honestly, I'd buy something from Mike Milli at Dtech or Ritch Johnson at Ritch's Precision Guns before I bought a factory rifle over $600. For cheaper rifles, DPMS, Bushmaster, Ruger, Savage, S&W... Flip a coin, they're all going to be about on the same playing field.

 

[funklord12]

The former owner of Bushmaster re-opened under the name Windham Weaponry. It's in the old Bushmaster factory and he re-hired his former employees.

 

[Varminterror]

Windham Weaponry is also a sponsor of the Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association (NFL for rodeo), so I do try to throw sheckles their way whenever I can.

 

[farmerboy78]

Look, I will throw in another ar into the mix. You can do research and won't find anything bad. Get a white oak armament upper and a rra lower that already has their national match 2 stage trigger. I shoot mine in .223 out to 800yds with 77gr nosler cc and tac... it's very accurate!

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Why not put one together for your friend?
You'd get to have the fun of the build, and he'd get exactly what he needs/wants.

 

[Bottom Gun]

Why not put one together for your friend?
You'd get to have the fun of the build, and he'd get exactly what he needs/wants.

The subject came up but he said he would rather have a factory build. One of his other friends cautioned him against buying a home build for a number of reasons. I don't want to try to persuade him to go against his friend's advice and frankly, I have a number of my own projects to take up my "spare" time. I don't mind spending a few minutes putting a new trigger in for him or swapping butt stocks, etc but I'd rather not sign on for a build project. Besides, he is chaffing at the bit to be out shooting one so a factory assembled rifle would be instant gratification.
He doesn't use computers so he came over this morning so I could help him look at various models on Gunbroker, search for online reviews, etc. We also had another show and tell session complete with a field stripping demo. He really liked my Noveske but when I told him what it cost me, he decided to continue to look at other brands. Right now he is leaning toward a Windam Weaponry rifle. They seem to be a good value and hopefully they will be as good quality as the older Bushmasters.

 

[redneck2]

IMO, I think a lot guys (OK, virtually everyone) gets all wrapped up in a name on the rifle. In automobiles for example, a manufacturer is responsible for every one of the components. They make the engine, transmission, drive train, down to the wiring.

Just remember that AR's are a composite of purchased components. For the most part, builders buy a collection of pieces and put them together.

I was pretty much in your situation. I already have an ultra accurate Windham Bushmaster. Shoots sub dime size groups with hand loads. It's one of four I have. Another is a .358 WSSM that shoots .4's. The common thread is that they both have Match grade barrels. The Bushie a Wilson Air Gauged and the .358 a Shilen Ultra Match.

For my latest, I went to Vision Defense in Middlebury, IN. They will build whatever you want any way you want. I was looking for a combo HD/varmint accurate rifle. I got another Wilson barrel, free float hand guard. Gunfighter charging handle. Guaranteed to shoot 1" or better

 

[Hokie_PhD]

IMO, I think a lot guys (OK, virtually everyone) gets all wrapped up in a name on the rifle. In automobiles for example, a manufacturer is responsible for every one of the components. They make the engine, transmission, drive train, down to the wiring.

Actually that's not true. Yes companies like GM, Ford, etc USED to make all of their parts either directly or through subsidy companies that they fully owned and controlled. But over the years they sold of many of these companies. Hence why so many have had recalls on things like airbags as they all became dependent on a few companies.

Many parts are now made by companies such as TRW, MOOG etc who sell to each auto maker.

ARs are made to a set of publicly available plans and specs. As long as you conform to the specs anyone can make parts if they have the skill, tooling and ability and your parts should work. Granted some are made to tighter tolerances than others. Some exceed the specs, but at a minimum they shoukd be good to go.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

The subject came up but he said he would rather have a factory build. One of his other friends cautioned him against buying a home build for a number of reasons. I don't want to try to persuade him to go against his friend's advice and frankly, I have a number of my own projects to take up my "spare" time.

I don't mind spending a few minutes putting a new trigger in for him or swapping butt stocks, etc but I'd rather not sign on for a build project. Besides, he is chaffing at the bit to be out shooting one so a factory assembled rifle would be instant gratification.

Gotcha
I guess I understand. If it were my first AR, I'd be cautious and want a "name brand". In fact, been there done that.

I also understand those that are leery of "home built" although I wonder if they really understand parts selection, and how easy it is to put together an AR. To me the parts selected, and knowing someone did things right would be my concern. That said, I enjoy learning and think it's cool having something unique and custom.

 

[Varminterror]

Actually that's not true. Yes companies like GM, Ford, etc USED to make all of their parts either directly or through subsidy companies that they fully owned and controlled. But over the years they sold of many of these companies. Hence why so many have had recalls on things like airbags as they all became dependent on a few companies.

Many parts are now made by companies such as TRW, MOOG etc who sell to each auto maker.

ARs are made to a set of publicly available plans and specs. As long as you conform to the specs anyone can make parts if they have the skill, tooling and ability and your parts should work. Granted some are made to tighter tolerances than others. Some exceed the specs, but at a minimum they shoukd be good to go.

I think the spirit of his response was correct, so the context of contract manufacture isn't really applicable for what he meant.

While the same component contractor might make parts for Chevy, Ford, and Dodge, they don't send the same exact transmission to all 3. All of the parts remain independent to their respective brands.

Which is not the same for AR parts. The same exact part gets shipped to these different brands. The uppers Brass Aluminum and Cerro Forge send to Bushmaster, Aero, Frontier, Delton, etc are EXACTLY the same part.

 

[Varminterror]

It IS rational to have reservations about buying any old "home brew" AR from any old guy with an armouers wrench. Manufacturers are all held to effectively the same standards for reliability and quality, but JimBob down the block might not have a clue how an AR should run, nor how to make one run, whereas other home-builders might have more knowledge and put more skillful tuning and care into building than any main brand AR you might find in the rack for sale at your LGS.

I've seen too many home builders which don't have a clue put together poorly fit parts for themselves or buddies, then wonder why it doesn't run. On the other hand, there are a lot of guys out there like myself, and a few others here - frankly, I haven't lost any knowledge compared to when I held my FFL, or worked under other licensed 'smiths building custom AR's. My BIL put his own together with the help of another guy on his SWAT which he said was their unofficial "armorer." Didn't feed worth a damned, didn't fire and wouldn't extract about 1:5, short stroked like crazy. After 15min in my shop, the problems were clear - the guy had mixed a rifle ramped barrel with an M4 cut upper, the extractor wasn't traveling, and the gas block wasn't aligned over the barrel port... but hey, he worked on a bunch of AR's and owns a Mag-Pul armorers wrench... an hour later, it was singing...

 

[coloradokevin]

I own a 1990's Bushmaster (ban years). It is a 20" A2 variant with military style furniture, and it's a very accurate rifle for a variant of this type. The trigger is just okay... middle of the road somewhat crunchy combat trigger. The rifle has been basically flawless, minus a gas key that wasn't staked/torqued enough when I got the rifle (easy fix).

I've heard that the brand has declined since they were sold, but I have no firsthand experience in that regard.

If he wants a good varmint gun at a good price, perhaps he should build his own? 95% of AR-15 accuracy is in the barrel, at least in my opinion. Building an AR-15 is pretty darn easy, honestly. It isn't so much gunsmithing as assembly work (just do some reading and watch some videos first). The other advantage of building your own rifle is that you'll have far more knowledge of that rifle than the average AR owner.

 

[Zerodefect]

You can buy a complete upper and a bolt carrier from the same company. For example: BCM. And your AR15 will be perfectly reliable.

The complete lower assembly has nearly nothing to do with reliability or accuracy (aside from trigger quality). A Stag, Bushmaster, or LMT lower with a BCM upper is as good as anything out there. No worries.

 

[Bottom Gun]

Thanks for all the good advice, guys. My friend, Rick, has decided to buy a Windham Weaponry AR and is in the process of bidding on one on Gunbroker.

 

[Varminterror]

95% of AR-15 accuracy is in the barrel

All of the precision in any rifle is only in the barrel, brass, primed, bullet, and charge.

Everything else about the rifle is either meant for letting the shooter pick the POA, or meant to not detract from the precision of the items listed above. Good triggers don't make rifles more precise, they make them more shootable. Free float stocks or handguards don't make a rifle more precise, they make the rifle less susceptible to inconsistencies in pressure. Bedding jobs don't make them more accurate, they just ensure the action is positioned the same from one shot to the next to avoid sprawling precision....

Buying barrels and precision match bullets, prepping your brass, and loading consistent and forgiving charge weights are investments in precision potential. Everything else is simply investment in stop-loss methods to help the rifle live up to that potential.

 

[MistWolf]

All of the precision in any rifle is only in the barrel, brass, primed, bullet, and charge.

Everything else about the rifle is either meant for letting the shooter pick the POA, or meant to not detract from the precision of the items listed above. Good triggers don't make rifles more precise, they make them more shootable. Free float stocks or handguards don't make a rifle more precise, they make the rifle less susceptible to inconsistencies in pressure. Bedding jobs don't make them more accurate, they just ensure the action is positioned the same from one shot to the next to avoid sprawling precision....

Buying barrels and precision match bullets, prepping your brass, and loading consistent and forgiving charge weights are investments in precision potential. Everything else is simply investment in stop-loss methods to help the rifle live up to that potential.

That pretty much sums it up. Precision in an AR is found in the barrel assembly, how the bolt headspaces and ammo