AR throwing empties forward-

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gifbohane

gifbohane

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Ok- Here is a strange one (to me.) My S-I-L's AR 15 firing 223 started ejecting the empties to the three o'clock position after years of throwing them to the 6 or 7 o'clock position. The only changes made were I gave him a very thorough cleaning job AND he started using a new powder. H 335 to CFE.

Any thoughts?
 
I am not following. If it was ejecting to the 6 o'clock position that would be into your face. It can happen. 7 o'clock would not be possible for a right hand ejecting semi-auto. 3 o'clock is about where you want them to eject.

If they are truly ejecting forward (roughly 1 0'clock) that would most likely be cause by the BCG running faster than normal. The cases are hitting the back of the ejection port and bouncing forward. The faster BCG is not giving the empty cases time to fully rotate and hit the case deflector rather than the back edge of the ejection port.

The cleaning could speed things up a little, especially if it was super dirty to start with. The change in propellent could in theory also speed things up if the new load is increasing gas port pressure.

ETA: Graphic to help get us all talking about the same directions.

7ece239117706b9926754d531edabdba.jpg
 
Sorry!!! Mixed up my degrees and clock. They used to eject to 3:30 to 4 on your graphic. Now they eject to 2 o'clock.

And ... he and I never let them get very dirty. Clean almost after every session. I did work on the extractor and removed a lot if grit this time.
 
gifbohane said:
Sorry!!! Mixed up my degrees and clock. They used to eject to 3:30 to 4 on your graphic. Now they eject to 2 o'clock.

And ... he and I never let them get very dirty. Clean almost after every session. I did work on the extractor and removed a lot if grit this time.
Click to expand...

A clean well lubricated gun is going to run faster than a dirty gun, varies in degrees depending how dirt vs how clean. Some of it might simply be the gun breaking in. AR's tend to run faster and faster as they wear in and the ejection pattern usually starts working foreword. There is still the possibility that the change in loads might contribute to this to some degree too.
 
gifbohane said:
They used to eject to 3:30 to 4 on your graphic. Now they eject to 2 o'clock.
Click to expand...

Most of my AR's eject 1 to 2 OC, and I'm quite happy with that. If you're on a firing line with other shooters, such as across the course events, 3 OC throws hot brass onto the guy next to you. A hot brass down the back of your shirt will get your attention in a bad way.
 
The pie is a lie.

Since that ejection chart has come out, we’ve become more educated about ARs. Under/over/just right gassing cannot be judged by ejection angle. If you don’t believe it, get an over gassed barrel, install an adjustable gas block and try tuning the AR using the pie chart. (In case you’re wondering, the correct way to tune gas flow with an adjustable gas block, is to close the gas until the action ejects but does not lock back, then open it up until it elects and locks back.)

When the ejection angle changes, it’s a sign the extractor spring is going bad. Replace the extractor spring with a Colt or Sprinco extractor spring. Make sure to also install a new spring bumper, but do not install an O ring.
 
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Much Ado About Nothing. Until the malfunctions start. Prediction: New thread- "AR is having double feeds!"
 
Well I reckon you could shoot the snot out of it. Make it dirty again. And see if it changes things. Other wise maybe a decent gunsmith. Or do what mechanics do nowadays throw parts at it until it runs the way you want it.
 
From what the chart says, I can see the over-gassed thing. When I shoot my AR's without the suppressor, they all seem to eject at around 3-4 o'clock.

When I put my suppressor on the gun, they shift from there to 1-2 o'clock. If I dont Permatex the charging handle, and even if I do, I also usually get gassed in the face pretty good. So I would think that that would indicate that over-gassing does have something to do with it.
 
trackskippy said:
From what the chart says, I can see the over-gassed thing. When I shoot my AR's without the suppressor, they all seem to eject at around 3-4 o'clock.

When I put my suppressor on the gun, they shift from there to 1-2 o'clock. If I dont Permatex the charging handle, and even if I do, I also usually get gassed in the face pretty good. So I would think that that would indicate that over-gassing does have something to do with it.
Click to expand...
What extractor spring do you have?

What I’ve found is if ejection shifts forward when a suppressor is added (over gassing), the ejector spring has weakened or is under sprung to begin with.

At the time that ejection pie chart was put out, the only AR with the correct extractor spring was Colt.
 
The springs that came with the guns. It does it with all of them, not just one specific gun.

Other than the gas in the face, I'm not complaining, the guns extract and eject fine.
 
Mine with factory loads eject at 4:30 to about 15 feet away. Hand loaded down down to about 2500 fps eject at about 2:00 and the empties go about 3 feet and cross over the fence in front of the shooting position. The slower loads make it harder to harvest the brass as I have to walk all the way around the points to get it. No big deal.
 
H&R Glock said:
Mine with factory loads eject at 4:30 to about 15 feet away. Hand loaded down down to about 2500 fps eject at about 2:00 and the empties go about 3 feet and cross over the fence in front of the shooting position.
Click to expand...

So, you are saying that the lower FPS tend to throw the empties further forward? If so then I see the problem with my rounds, they were "ladder " rounds, working up. Believe that they started at 2700 FPS and got as high as 2900.
 
Yes Gifbohane, I can't explain it, but that's the way mine ( .556 Delton) works. Light loads (.223's chronographed at 2535) go forward and only 3-4 feet away. Go figure. I'd rather avoid as much wear and tear on the rifle as I can by shooting mild loads. I find they will also punch holes on paper at 100 meters just like full blown 223's. (and it saves on powder) :)
 
@gifbohane MistWolf’s batting average on solving AR function issues is stellar. Save the hair pulling and spend the $4.00 I bought 2 10-packs, swapped out my old ones, and put them in every new build. I don’t have issues with any of mine.

I also don’t cut coils on the ejector spring to “tune” it as I’ve seen people recommend. I worry about the brass when it’s inspected before reloading, but at the range, I just want it out of the gun.
 
Skylerbone said:
@gifbohane MistWolf’s batting average on solving AR function issues is stellar. Save the hair pulling and spend the $4.00 I bought 2 10-packs, swapped out my old ones, and put them in every new build. I don’t have issues with any of mine.

I also don’t cut coils on the ejector spring to “tune” it as I’ve seen people recommend. I worry about the brass when it’s inspected before reloading, but at the range, I just want it out of the gun.[/QUOTE
Click to expand...


Thanks for the tip about Skylerbone.

My AR was build from a few different sources, the fundamentals were AERO upper and lower. Can you give me the location of the10 packs that you suggest ?
 
+1000 on the ejection angle meaning nothing. The way to tell if a self loading gun of any sort works is... if it works. Forget my several all being reliable and throwing different directions, I've been on a line and looked up: everyone throwing different directions.

I am likewise not excited about upgrades unless needed. Good springs are good but my oldest AR, with lots of rounds of all sorts (including lots of blanks) through it has no O-ring. Works fine. I just last weekend cleaned it for a change after a busy week (really, because we got rained on, normally I just lube and carry on) and found the extractor spring broken. Used the BCM version of the extractor upgrade kit (but it looks identical to the PA kit) and... again left out the O-ring. Works fine.

Another of mine is an SBR — absolutely does need the O-ring — runs a .300 upper, suppressed and not, a 5.56 upper, suppressed and not, and a 9 mm SMG upper,...all with the same buffer and spring with zero stoppages ever, any ammo. You can't do that, except: mine does. Which I leave alone because it runs and runs and runs, dirty and wet and frozen and everything.
 
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Yep, I’ve got a miniature donut collection in a Plano box in case I find another use like machine screw vibration isolation devices or whatever.
 
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