AR vs. AK vs. Mini 14

Which an' Why?

  • AR-15

    Votes: 213 61.9%
  • Ak-74

    Votes: 68 19.8%
  • Ruger Mini-14

    Votes: 63 18.3%

  • Total voters
    344
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If we are counting ALL the ak's variants in the us then I think we need to include ALL the ar types too. Then it makes the ar's look more like junk also.

I am really comparing ar's and ak's of arsenal/other professionally converted saiga's and BCM/Colt/mil spec ar's.
 
As I said before, any of the options will work just fine. I've no hands-on experience with the AK/SKS critters, but I've watched and read. I've had four ARs before the present one, and four Minis. Several thousand rounds of .223...

Since I've found that the Mini is very reliable on one-shot kills for coyotes and jackrabbits, I figure that it's as useful as any .223 for putting meat on the table.

There was a huge jackrabbit population explosion in northern Nevada and southwestern Idaho back around 1980 or 1981. Time magazine even had an article about it. A buddy of mine and I stood around his truck looking out over a marshy area not far from Winnemucca. In a little over an hour, we killed over a hundred jackrabbits with our Minis. That's one of the main reasons I defend the Mini as I do. Results count more than theory and woulda/coulda/shouda.

That a Mini won't give tight groups from a benchrest is about as irrelevant as anything I can imagine, for the parameters of the OP.
 
My buddy and I were at the range last Sunday. We brought 250 rounds of wolf ammo to shoot. His AR jammed every 5 to 10 rounds?!?!?!?. Someone else tried the ammo in their Colt AR, and the same thing happened. My mini was FLAWLESS. I shot my 125 rounds without a problem, and then what was left of his. In a self defense situation I want to gun that goes bang every time. If I plan on going to war Red Dawn style, any civilian rifle is inferior to the semi/full autos our military uses. I guess you would use your rifle to a real one shows up....Then again thats just my opinion....
 
In my hands, the AR-15 would be the only choice.

I know... that sounds condescending. But my bestest Uncle taught me everything I know about it. That was right after he gave me some food, a place to stay, and some shoes to wear, some money to spend... taught me how to fight... :)
 
My buddy and I were at the range last Sunday. We brought 250 rounds of wolf ammo to shoot. His AR jammed every 5 to 10 rounds?!?!?!?. Someone else tried the ammo in their Colt AR, and the same thing happened. My mini was FLAWLESS. I shot my 125 rounds without a problem, and then what was left of his. In a self defense situation I want to gun that goes bang every time. If I plan on going to war Red Dawn style, any civilian rifle is inferior to the semi/full autos our military uses. I guess you would use your rifle to a real one shows up....Then again thats just my opinion....
Did you clean the star chamber before you swapped from brass to steel ammo?

My spidey sense tells me no, you didn't. That is the most common reason why those steel cases stick. :p
 
"...any civilian rifle is inferior to the semi/full autos our military uses."

Nope. Sorry. And there are danged few of both types that I haven't messed with, these last sixty years. All US military rifles from Krag through M-16. Rem, Win, Sako, Ruger; bolt, lever, semi. They all function equally well, on average.

The only advantage to some military rifles is the full-auto capability. Absent being solo and dealing with an armed crowd, full-auto is not really all that necessary.

And unless you're well-trained with a full-auto critter, you'll find that in lifelike "fun house" shooting exercises, a skilled semi-auto guy will outscore your full-auto efforts, every time. Thompsons are the most easily controlled, along with the M-16s. Fun toys. :)
 
Are most people not aware thar Ruger produces factory 20-rd. mags for the Mini 14s?
According to "Perfectunion", they seem to be perfectly reliable, even those produced fro the Mini 30,
 
So much for a "reliable" gun. So you shoot a mag of steel case ammo and you need to reload but WAIT! Get out your cleaning kit and open the gun before you shoot that brass! Of course someone is shooting at you still but dont worry they have a AK and they can only get head shots at 200yds (5 shot groups with my WASR and brown brear)

It is reliable they say....but when it jams or whatever for you they say you did not keep it super clean and you did not baby it enough. The way I see it that is what unreliable is.


Still think SIG beats all 3.
 
If we are counting ALL the ak's variants in the us then I think we need to include ALL the ar types too. Then it makes the ar's look more like junk also.

You stipulated a rifle capable of hitting a target at 400 yards, presumably under field conditions.

You should consider taking your rifle out and actually shooting at a target at 400 yards to see how you do.

If possible, look up local rifle or 3 gun matches and attend those. They will really help you learn the best way to run your rifle.

So much for a "reliable" gun. So you shoot a mag of steel case ammo and you need to reload but WAIT! Get out your cleaning kit and open the gun before you shoot that brass! Of course someone is shooting at you still but dont worry they have a AK and they can only get head shots at 200yds (5 shot groups with my WASR and brown brear)

I'm hard pressed to think of an even remotely realistic situation in which these circumstances would actually occur.

For this to happen, the following events would need to transpire:
  1. You would need to be in possession of an AR that doesn't run lacquered ammo.
  2. You would have loaded the aforementioned rifle with lacquered ammo.
  3. You then would have to find yourself engaged in a firefight of some sort.
  4. And in the midst of this firefight, you suddenly decide to switch ammunition.
  5. And somehow, switching ammunition type causes your rifle to not function.
  6. And you're somehow not able to quickly clear a jam in an AR15, which can be done quickly in most circumstances.
  7. Did I mention that you find yourself (improbably) in a firefight with someone who's shooting at you with an AK?

Some guns don't run lacquered ammo. The solution is fairly simple: if it causes your gun to choke, don't shoot it.
 
AR v AK v Mini

I don't think there is a correct answer. It comes down to personal preference. Since I got a lot of training with the AR platform I would lean towards it. Any machine can malfunction and with the AR I know how to fix any issues. Maybe it's just my Marine brainwashing working overtime but accuracy is king to me. I'll do my part to keep the rifle clean and functioning. I just ask the rifle to be true to where I aim it.

While I don't have as much trigger time with the Mini or AK. I own a version of both and would feel comfortable with either. I would just have to adjust how I use my rifles if I had either of them.
 
Of the 3 listed, I'd have to go with the AR. Nothing wrong with the other 2, if that is what works for you. The AR is what works for me. Simple as that.

I have zero experience with the Mini-14, so I really can't comment. The ergos of the AK platform have never worked well for me. I am 6'7", and my neck is freakishly long :eek: . As a result, I have a darned hard time craning my neck down to see the sights on an AK. I really wish that wasn't the case, but it is what it is. OTH, the SKS does fit me fairly well. And in a way, I always thought the SKS would make a better SHTF TEOTWAWKI gun, what with it's fixed magazine (no mags to loose or break).
 
In his first post, Sprice posted that he wanted a rifle accurate to 400 yards.

Frankly, I'm not sure that you can expect repeatable 400 yard accuracy out of any rifle if your stated intention is to shoot the cheapest crap ammunition you can find through it.
 
Love my AK but the I would take my AR over it if it came down to it. It seems like it is easier to upgrade than the AK and I like to reload so loading 5.56 is a lot easier to find components for. As far as the mini goes.. I hate them and that is my reason...
 
In order from best to worst:

AK
Mini14
AR

The AK is available in SF versions for much less, the mini 14 has no SF version and ARs are well, ARs. Direct impingement sucks, face the fact it is an inferior design. The only DI rifles used widely are the AR platform, every other Mil-Spec rifle either has a piston or a short recoil system. The case on AK accuracy is BS, nine times out of ten, in FA fire, an AK will be easier to control due to less recoil (heavier body means less recoil, plus MB is there) and the 5.45 has better ballistics. The AK also does not need cleaning to fire, the ARs most definitely do or you will get jams. Sorry, but as I say, Stoner was a stoner.

The Ruger Mini has a better gas system than the AR, it also is more accurate due to generally longer barrels and better QC.

Sorry AR fellas, I like the AR but Stoner IMHO was an awful gun designer. He is in my books with the SVt-40 rifle creator, a bad design replacing an excellent one (m16 and m14, avs-36 and svt-40)
 
In order from best to worst:

AK
Mini14
AR

The AK is available in SF versions for much less, the mini 14 has no SF version and ARs are well, ARs. Direct impingement sucks, face the fact it is an inferior design. The only DI rifles used widely are the AR platform, every other Mil-Spec rifle either has a piston or a short recoil system. The case on AK accuracy is BS, nine times out of ten, in FA fire, an AK will be easier to control due to less recoil (heavier body means less recoil, plus MB is there) and the 5.45 has better ballistics. The AK also does not need cleaning to fire, the ARs most definitely do or you will get jams. Sorry, but as I say, Stoner was a stoner.

The Ruger Mini has a better gas system than the AR, it also is more accurate due to generally longer barrels and better QC.

Sorry AR fellas, I like the AR but Stoner IMHO was an awful gun designer. He is in my books with the SVt-40 rifle creator, a bad design replacing an excellent one (m16 and m14, avs-36 and svt-40)


Oh lawdy.
 

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Spec ops Grunt said:
Oh lawdy.

Agreed.
Just.... yeah. Agreed!

I've owned I think seven AK's now, one AR and was issued two M-16A2's, and have shot the Mini but never owned one.

The Mini I shot didn't work with the high-caps the owner had, but that's not the fault of the gun. Reliable hi-caps weren't available during the ban for anything less than your first-born child. They are available now and I think the Mini would run fine, especially the 16" version they're selling - because something about the harmonics of the Mini's standard barrel length was suspected of causing the accuracy issues. A shorter barrel should be less vulnerable to that. However, magazines are too expensive. It's not competitive for my uses. I rule it out, but based on economics, not on function. In a few years when reliable 20 and 30 round magazines are $11.99 each, I may reconsider.

The AK's I've owned and shot... some worked well and were reasonably accurate, one was perfectly reliable and very accurate, and a couple have neither worked reliably nor shot well. Sorry to the AK fan boys, but if the gun has something wrong with it, it's not going to run whether it's an AK or not. They're just rifles.

The AR I owned was an Olympic 16" carbine. I bought it before I knew Olympic was a lower quality AR and before I knew carbines lost so much velocity and how hard the 5.56 is on moving parts in a carbine length gun. Having said that, that freakin little rifle just plain worked. It needed a better fitting charging handle - sometimes I'd get a puff of gas in the face when shooting. But it did work.
The two M-16's I used in the Army also worked. One had a bad extractor spring when I got it. I complained, got that fixed, and it ran perfectly after that. The other worked fine from day one.

Of the choices, I'd take an AR. Why? Because I can hit stuff with them and when they're in good working order, they're not significantly less reliable than anything else.
 
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If you want to determine which gun will be reliable, then shoot the ammo that is supposed to go in it. Complaining about cheap steel fodder not working well is like complaining no lead gas in a NASCAR stocker means the car is crap. Really?

GUNS ARE DESIGNED TO WORK WITH AMMO THAT IS DESIGNED AND LOADED FOR THE GUN. That goes double for semi automatics. The general public is clueless, but take a closer look and learn something. Semi auto gas operated shotguns are largely equipped with regulating valves to work with both light bird loads and magnum goose. The extreme variance in gas available to make the action function, and the intolerance of shooters who refuse to consider their ammo the problem, have forced shotgun makers into coming up with all sorts of contrived mechanisms.

The M16/M4 uses a few issued rounds in combat, and they are loaded to make the action work FIRST, not save a dime a round blasting dirt berms. If cheap loads are what someone wants, get a gross of Black Cats. It amounts to about the same entertainment.

If the choice is a SHTF survival rifle built to the highest standard of durability to shoot no matter what, it's pretty lame to then expect great performance from import discount ammo never loaded to specs in the first place. We've got legions of posters claiming milspec is absolutely the minimum standard, but when it comes to ammo, get all squirmy about paying the price for it.

Hypocrites, or too lazy to reload - a entry level reloading kit is less than a good optic and will save 40-60% on ammo. What ARE they thinking?

Really, it's not so much the gun in a bad situation, like fishing, the prey could care less what rod and reel you have. What counts is the quality of the hook. Shooting crap malfunctioning ammo is it's own punishment.

Retitle the thread: AMMO for TEOTWAWKI: MILSPEC VS. THIRD WORLD VS. COMMERCIAL, Which do you trust your life with?
 
Dreamcast, with all due respect, you haven't the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.



Direct impingement sucks, face the fact it is an inferior design.

If by "has fewer moving parts, is a lighter overall system, and results in a rifle that is more inherently accurate" then yes, DI clearly sucks.

The only DI rifles used widely are the AR platform, every other Mil-Spec rifle either has a piston or a short recoil system.

Ah, an appeal to popularity. More people do it one way, so that must be correct.

Most computers in this world run Windows, so clearly it must be a much better and more stable operating system than Linux or MacOS.



The case on AK accuracy is BS,

Only if you're engaging targets out to about 150-200 yards. Much beyond that, and it becomes pretty clearly obvious which rifle system is more suited to engaging targets at distance.

nine times out of ten, in FA fire, an AK will be easier to control due to less recoil (heavier body means less recoil, plus MB is there)

Really? Would you care to enlighten us with your experiences firing fully-automatic assault rifles in side-by-side comparisons?

and the 5.45 has better ballistics.

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The AK also does not need cleaning to fire, the ARs most definitely do or you will get jams.

Ah yes. AKs never jam. Ever. And ARs are clearly unreliable and won't run dirty. Nevermind that I own multiple ARs that generally go around 1,000-2,000 rounds between cleanings, and even a cursory search of this forum will show you many posts from many AR owners who report similar results.

Sorry, but as I say, Stoner was a stoner.

Herp derp derp

The Ruger Mini has a better gas system than the AR, it also is more accurate due to generally longer barrels and better QC.

If so, then explain to me why the Mini 14 design generally is a 2 moa or worse rifle out of the box, and the groups tend to open up under sustained rapid fire. (The same can be said for the AK as well.)

Sorry AR fellas, I like the AR but Stoner IMHO was an awful gun designer.

Perhaps you'd care to show us your mechanical engineering credentials? Demonstrate your knowledge of firearms design by showing us a rifle of your own conception that you've built, that runs under adverse conditions, and is 1moa accurate out of the box.

Or perhaps you'd care to regale us with rifle experience that wasn't derived from playing Call of Duty.
 
The AK is available in SF versions for much less, the mini 14 has no SF version and ARs are well, ARs. Direct impingement sucks, face the fact it is an inferior design. The only DI rifles used widely are the AR platform, every other Mil-Spec rifle either has a piston or a short recoil system. The case on AK accuracy is BS, nine times out of ten, in FA fire, an AK will be easier to control due to less recoil (heavier body means less recoil, plus MB is there) and the 5.45 has better ballistics. The AK also does not need cleaning to fire, the ARs most definitely do or you will get jams. Sorry, but as I say, Stoner was a stoner.
You clearly have never fired an AK or an AR on FA... Stop playing COD and go to the range .
 
The Ruger Mini has a better gas system than the AR, it also is more accurate due to generally longer barrels and better QC.
False. A very good mini shoots as well as an average AR, and the best mini's (the Target model) are not as accurate as an AR set up for precision shooting. The mini's cantilevered gas block and very heavy "piston" work against accuracy, as does the fact that a mini cannot be set up with a truly free-floated barrel.

My own mini (188-series Ranch Rifle) was less accurate with precision loads than my 7.62x39mm Century-import Romanian AK shooting black-box Wolf, which is saying something. That's not to say mini's are all that bad (most aren't), but the AR is far and away the more accurate system. The AR is also far more reliable than Internet myth would suggest.
 
Wow, a mod being a troll... I do not play Call of Duty, but neither am I an engineer in guns or anything like that. I am just taking into account that in the world of small arms, you can't argue the same principle as in computers. The consumer world runs windows, but the embedded market is primarily unix/linux territory, and they outnumber consumer machines by more than 2:1. Its like looking at the number of M4s in the US military versus the number of FALs then using that statistic for the world, it isn't an accurate statistic because you aren't looking at the big picture.

Plus take into account that the video you sent me had 31 likes, 34 dislikes, I am surprised at you immaturity by even trying to validate such a video's credibility of lack thereof. Most of the comments in the beginning refer to the 47, not the 74 and they obviously rigged it by using a defective magazine or one they put handfuls of crap in. I would have expected more professional behaviour from a moderator too, you don't back up your facts reasonably at all and you resort to attacking my own credibility.

Since we are on the matter of reliability, explain why a DI M4 jammed the most versus the SCAR,416 and XM8? Almost twice as much as the 416 did, so you see, simply adding a gas piston doubled reliability. A gas piston is a much better design because you don't get barrel fouling from recaptured gases, in a combat situation, your gun needs to be able to tolerate even the dirtiest ammunition, something the M16A1 failed to do in 'Nam.

I have shot a 47 in both FA and SA, and I will say it had pretty bad recoil, I have shot a Mini 14 which had no noticeable recoil compared to a 47, but as most ARs are composites and aluminum, so recoil is definitely worse. From this I can say the recoil of a 74 (which I've held) is most likely somewhere between a mini 14 and an AR, so fairly light recoil on a 74 can be expected.

The 5.45 is less velocity dependent and has a heavier bullet, suggesting it can tumble more easily in a person. Both rounds however cannot be used for deer hunting in some places, for obvious reasons, so I say both are unsuitable for military use as how can you expect it to take down a person when it can't take down a deer?

The Mini I shot has an aftermarket barrel, (I was 13 when I shot it) and so we were not judging accuracy, but IIRC I was doing okay with it out to 200 yd, of course my father had sighted the gun before I shot it, so that probably had something to do with it. The rifle looks like the police ac 556, but is shorter and is semi only, it doesn't say ranch rifle so it is pre 2005.

As for which system is better for engaging at a distance, the AR platform relies on high velocity of the bullet and most mil spec rifles are little good beyond 400yds in semi. An AK may have reduced velocity, but in a military setting this is not an issue. Try attaching a 4x scope to your AR and compare it to an M1A with the same power scope. Try shooting a target beyond 450 yd with both, as you will see the AR will have greatly reduced accuracy beyond that range.

Neither system is designed for long range targets, as both are miliatry derived designs from the Cold War, the 74 was designed to give Soviet soldiers the ability to have longer range FA control, where as the AR-15 is a neutered AR-10 designed for a smaller round that should never have been introduced to our military, as we traded an excellent battle rifle for a mediocre varmit gun.


Thats the end of my arguements, take it as you will
 
A gas piston is a much better design because you don't get barrel fouling from recaptured gases, in a combat situation, your gun needs to be able to tolerate even the dirtiest ammunition, something the M16A1 failed to do in 'Nam.
That was nearly 50 years ago at this point. Advances have been made. The issues of the 1960s are no longer a problem. You argument is invalid.
From this I can say the recoil of a 74 (which I've held)
But never fired. Argument invalid.
The 5.45 is less velocity dependent and has a heavier bullet, suggesting it can tumble more easily in a person.
Cite please.
As for which system is better for engaging at a distance, the AR platform relies on high velocity of the bullet and most mil spec rifles are little good beyond 400yds in semi.
Yeah cause I have never hit targets at 600y yards with an AR and an ACOG... oh wait yeah I did.
that should never have been introduced to our military, as we traded an excellent battle rifle for a mediocre varmit gun.
You base this on your many years of service in the armed forces do you? Oh wait...

And as for the HK416 being the do all end all check this link out:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=313249

And just on a whim, does your user name refer to the Sega Dreamcast? Cause that has to be the absolute worst gaming system in history.
 
Dreamcast, would you care to give us an estimate of how many rounds you put through various rifles in any given year?

How much experience do you have with the following platforms:
  • AK-pattern guns
  • AR15s
  • SCAR
  • HK416
  • XM-8
  • Mini-14

Of those rifles which you presumably have experience with, under what circumstances have you used them? Any of the following:

  • Training classes
  • Practically-oriented competition
  • Precision-oriented competition
  • Military service
  • Police service
  • Hunting

Answering the above questions will go a long way to establishing where the conversation goes.
 
The Ruger Mini has a better gas system than the AR, it also is more accurate due to generally longer barrels and better QC.

Sorry AR fellas, I like the AR but Stoner IMHO was an awful gun designer.

epic fail
 
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