AR15 calibers for hogs, what's the big deal?

[MCgunner]

This has always sort of bugged me, but where's the gain when you neck up the .223 for a bigger bullet? The gain is only in bullet weight and diameter. You lose something very important, sectional density and energy remains about the same 1200 or so ft lbs mas o menos. I just don't see where I gain a lot with, say, a .300 BLK over the .223 for hog hunting. The little short, low SD bullets aren't going to penetrate as well as the 62 grain Barnes TSX controlled expansion bullet I'm loading in .223. There's no more energy and with a lower ballistic coefficient, the .300 BLK is going to shed velocity faster over distance. Now, I admit the only hogs I've killed so far with the .223 were two small ones I trapped and I shot those with Russian 62 grain JHPs which aren't exactly premium, but the pigs did die rather rapidly.

But, on paper, I just don't see any advantage with a bigger bullet in the AR. Sure, it's heavier, but it's slower. You can't get something for nothing. And, the sectional density is superior in the heavy .223 bullet. Of course, there's always the AR10 for the serious hog hunter.

Just thought I'd get some discussion going, I might learn something.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

7mm Valkyrie for hog hunting with the AR-15. Need I say more lol.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

This has always sort of bugged me, but where's the gain when you neck up the .223 for a bigger bullet? The gain is only in bullet weight and diameter. You lose something very important, sectional density and energy remains about the same 1200 or so ft lbs mas o menos. I just don't see where I gain a lot with, say, a .300 BLK over the .223 for hog hunting. The little short, low SD bullets aren't going to penetrate as well as the 62 grain Barnes TSX controlled expansion bullet I'm loading in .223. There's no more energy and with a lower ballistic coefficient, the .300 BLK is going to shed velocity faster over distance. Now, I admit the only hogs I've killed so far with the .223 were two small ones I trapped and I shot those with Russian 62 grain JHPs which aren't exactly premium, but the pigs did die rather rapidly.

But, on paper, I just don't see any advantage with a bigger bullet in the AR. Sure, it's heavier, but it's slower. You can't get something for nothing. And, the sectional density is superior in the heavy .223 bullet. Of course, there's always the AR10 for the serious hog hunter.

Just thought I'd get some discussion going, I might learn something.

I've never hunted pigs but I always thought the idea behind the .300 BLK. was the heavy bullet would still provide good ft/lbs even at sub sonic speeds for silenced guns.

 

[jmr40]

The 300 Blackout is a step down in performance compared to the better 223/5.56 loads. It is a cool round if you want to shoot with no noise, but if you want to kill stuff stay with 223/5.56. Ft. lbs of energy doesn't kill stuff, penetration kills stuff and expansion is an added bonus which comes from more impact velocity. Sectional density is the best predictor of penetration and long heavy for caliber bullets provide penetration. Poking bigger holes in game has virtually no impact on how effective a round kills. A 30, 35 or even 45 caliber hole is still a small hole, 22 caliber hole is just a little smaller.

The problem with 300 BA is that the heavier bullets leave the muzzle at speeds too slow to expand and they act like FMJ. Most of the lighter 30 caliber bullets are designed as varmint bullets and provide poor penetration on larger game.

Some of the more powerful rounds based on cartridges other than the 223 case such as 6.5 Grendel and others do offer some advantage, but even then the difference isn't that great. The 223/5.56 with 60-77 gr bullets kills deer and moderate size hogs as well as anything. Move up to bigger game and it is time to move up to bigger cartridges that won't work in the AR15. All of the AR10 loadings are legitimate big game rounds, but those rifles are getting too big and heavy to lug around.

 

[CraigC]

Then one might conclude that foot pounds of energy is a poor measure of a cartridge's effectiveness?

Poking bigger holes in game has virtually no impact on how effective a round kills. A 30, 35 or even 45 caliber hole is still a small hole, 22 caliber hole is just a little smaller.

Move up to bigger game and it is time to move up to bigger cartridges that won't work in the AR15.

These two statements would seem to contradict each other.

I agree with the latter but have to call BS on the former.

The problem with 300 BA is that the heavier bullets leave the muzzle at speeds too slow to expand and they act like FMJ. Most of the lighter 30 caliber bullets are designed as varmint bullets and provide poor penetration on larger game.

I've only used the 110gr Barnes on two deer but both exited. The one recovered expanded quite well. It has a higher SD than the 55gr .223 loading. So do some of the specialty heavy bullets designed for subsonic use in the .300.

 

[FL-NC]

556 is plenty of caliber for any porker, as long as you put it into something important. I've killed a dozen or so big ones with a 6" blade through the side of the body (while a pit bull held the head for me and someone else held the back feet).

 

[MCgunner]

556 is plenty of caliber for any porker, as long as you put it into something important. I've killed a dozen or so big ones with a 6" blade through the side of the body (while a pit bull held the head for me and someone else held the back feet).

Done that myself, though we stuck 'em in the throat with a filet knife.

See, jmb40 reflects my thoughts on the matter and he sounds like he has some experience in the matter. Me, I've only shot two in the trap with a Russian made steel case round and those were small. I've been walking the woods lately with a 62 grain Barnes TSX handload pushing between 2800 and 2900 fps out of my M4's 16" barrel. I'm itching to get a real life free range kill with it. I'd thought I'd shoot for behind the ear, but I want to find a decent sized pig and make a shoulder shot just to see. I think it'll kill as quick as any inside 100, probably inside 50 yards.

I really didn't get this AR to hunt with, got it for political reasons and I'll leave it at that, but if I'm going to own it, I'm going to find a use for it. And the thing is so danged cool......... Besides, my hunting rifles need a rest.

 

[FL-NC]

I've heard some great things coming out of the mideast concerning 70 grain TSX, but I have never done anything with it (after my time). I have had excellent results however with Hornady's 75 grain boat tail hollow point.

 

[Flintknapper]

The 300 Blackout is a step down in performance compared to the better 223/5.56 loads. It is a cool round if you want to shoot with no noise, but if you want to kill stuff stay with 223/5.56. Ft. lbs of energy doesn't kill stuff, penetration kills stuff and expansion is an added bonus which comes from more impact velocity. Sectional density is the best predictor of penetration and long heavy for caliber bullets provide penetration. Poking bigger holes in game has virtually no impact on how effective a round kills. A 30, 35 or even 45 caliber hole is still a small hole, 22 caliber hole is just a little smaller.

The problem with 300 BA is that the heavier bullets leave the muzzle at speeds too slow to expand and they act like FMJ. Most of the lighter 30 caliber bullets are designed as varmint bullets and provide poor penetration on larger game.

Some of the more powerful rounds based on cartridges other than the 223 case such as 6.5 Grendel and others do offer some advantage, but even then the difference isn't that great. The 223/5.56 with 60-77 gr bullets kills deer and moderate size hogs as well as anything. Move up to bigger game and it is time to move up to bigger cartridges that won't work in the AR15. All of the AR10 loadings are legitimate big game rounds, but those rifles are getting too big and heavy to lug around.

Right....?

 

[theblakester]

My 16" 6.8 with factory Hornady ammo shoots a 120 grain .277 cal pill 2500 fps and gets over 1650 ft/lbs energy at the muzzle. It maintains over 1000 ft/lbs of energy out past 275 yards. It also leaves a bigger hole when comparing apples to apples.

A 62 grain .223 TSX bullet at 3100 fps with 1323 ft/lbs at the muzzle falls under 1000 ft/lbs energy before reaching 125 yards. It loses energy quicker.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I went the 6.5 Grendel route. Bigger bullet with more energy at the muzzle and more energy down range that makes a bigger hole in the target and consistently disrupts more tissue than a .223.

You lose something very important, sectional density and energy remains about the same 1200 or so ft lbs mas o menos.

Okay, out of a 20" barrel, Hornady GMX 70 gr. with a BC of .35 will get you about 2882 fps and 1291 lbs of energy at the muzzle. It is down to 1067 at 100 and 875 by 200. http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/556-nato/70-gr-gmx-tap-barrier
From my 20" barrel Grendel with Hornady SST 123 gr with a BC of .51, I get about 2500 fps and 1707 lbs energy at the muzzle. It is down to 1483 at 100 and 1287 by 200.
From my 20" barrel Grendel with Berger VLD-Hunting 130gr with a BC of .562, I get about 2350 fps and 1594 lbs energy at the muzzle. It is down to 1400 at 100 and 1227 at 200. It is 1290 at 160 yards.

So at 200 yards, the Grendel's bigger, heavier, better BC SST bullet is carrying about the same energy as a 70 gr. GMX at the muzzle with SST and at 160 yards with the VLD-Hunting. Here, it is important to keep in mind aht most hog hunters do the majority of their hunting inside of 100 yards and not many hunt beyond 200 yards.

Recoil is a bit more, as you would expect.

Flint, up there, is a fan of the .458 socom. I got a chance to hunt with .50 Beowulf. It isn't really a long range round at all, but trajectory is more than adequate for anything inside of 200 yards. I don't have the ballistics anymore, but suffice to to say huge hole, huge hydraulic damage, lots of wasted meat. Recoil with the Beowulf is significantly stronger than with a .223.

So you can't just lump all AR15 platforms into the same energy classes and say they are equal, far from it.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, if I have to shoot a pig at 200 yards, don't know where I could SEE one that far away around here, I'll switch to my 7 mag or my .308. My night hunting involves 25 to 50 yards max. What happens past 100 yards certainly doesn't concern me.

So, there are some energy gains with the bigger calibers. I'd not have thought that, but I've not worked with any of 'em. I know I don't think I'll waste my time with .300 BLK, anyway. For now, I don't really want anything else, but the .223 in my M4. Main reason is it isn't my main hunting rifle, but also I like plinking with the cheap steel cased ammo. The only handload I've worked up is for hogs, the Barnes TSX load. If I eventually decide it's not enough, I may look into .458 SOCOM. Go big or go home. LOL

I ordered one of those green lasers to clamp to the rail on my scope. I was wanting this night vision capable scope day/night scope, but talked myself out of it. Too many things I didn't like about it. The laser is supposed to illuminate targets to 250 yards, so I figure it might actually do well at 50-100. But, that's good enough. The green light I have now is a LED and does good to make 50 yards.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Think of a .458 Socom, .450 Bushmaster, .50 Beowulf as being akin to semi-auto AR15 versions of a modern .45-70 and you can get excellent performance from a 16" barrel. So it can be a good bush gun.

 

[FL-NC]

They are just pigs. A 556 will do the trick, or whatever deer rifle you happen to have laying around.

 

[MCgunner]

Think of a .458 Socom, .450 Bushmaster, .50 Beowulf as being akin to semi-auto AR15 versions of a modern .45-70 and you can get excellent performance from a 16" barrel. So it can be a good bush gun.

Well, a .45-70 can push over 3000 ft lbs out of a modern rifle like the Ruger number one or maybe even a Marlin. I'd thought about a .45-70 barrel in my Contender, but I have a hard enough time with hot .45 colt. I cannot imagine the recoil of a .45-70 in THAT gun.

The SOCOM should work to 50-75 yards, perhaps 100, more range than I need, anyway. I DON'T think it's a .45-70, though.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You may be able to push the .45-70 to a higher extreme, but for practical purposes, the two have a considerable range of overlap in typical hunting cartridges with similar weights producing similar velocities.

Of course, you won't get semi-auto performance out of a Ruger #1 or Marlin 1895, LOL.

 

[MCgunner]

You may be able to push the .45-70 to a higher extreme, but for practical purposes, the two have a considerable range of overlap in typical hunting cartridges with similar weights producing similar velocities.

Of course, you won't get semi-auto performance out of a Ruger #1 or Marlin 1895, LOL.

Well, you WERE comparing calibers. The .45-70 is a 7 mag with a big bullet, as energy goes. I had an opportunity to buy a Siamese mauser custom chambered in .45-70 for 500 bucks which at the time I thought was a little much and I didn't need a friggin' buffalo gun at the time.

I'm sure the SOCOM is a good hog killer, but it'll never be a .45-70. I'm impressed that it can get 400 or 500 more ft lbs than the .223, though. I didn't think it'd be capable, but then, I posted this without researching it just for the conversation if nothing else.

See, if I really, REALLY wanted a more powerful semi auto for pigs, I have this Hakim Egyptian battle rifle I picked up 25 years ago for 80 bucks. THAT thing is a friggin' cannon, chambered for 8x57 mauser, and a 10 round mag. It's friggin' HUGE, though. LOL It's also heavy. But, I've found scope mountes for it from B Square. I don't think THAT beast would lack the power OR the firepower. I've heard you can adapt a 30 round mag from an MG34 with a file, too. But, I once looked up MG34 mags on the net and didn't figure I needed one THAT bad. LOL They were a might pricey. I just bought that thing because it was interesting and cheap. I mean, why not for 80 bucks. But, it is a lot of fun to unleash on a few soda cans.

I've used THIS before. I took the scope off it if, need some new mount screws for the mount as the allen heads have rounded off and I'd mounted it with loctite next time. It kept getting loose. I also have that green laser coming, far better than the old antique light I had on this thing. But, I've taken a few pigs with it. 7.62x39 ain't that powerful, but it's sort of a .30-30 in a semi auto and that ain't a bad thing. That cheap Wolf 154 soft point is pretty impressive in this rifle, close to 2200 fps and 2.5" at 100 yards accurate.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Silly. When I winter in the South and shoot pigs I use a proper .577 nitro express double rifle from Holland & Holland.
Oh shoot I missed April fools day!

 

[MCgunner]

I was in the shower thinkin' about this as to WHY a slightly bigger bullet (6.8 ) would make 400 more ft lbs and a .458" bullet could make 800-1000 more ft lbs. The analogy came to me, the .45 Colt vs the .44 mag, something I HAVE worked with as I have a Ruger Blackhawk AND a TC contender in .45 Colt.

You see, it is well known that a .45 Colt at 25,000 psi with the right powder can perform right with the .44 magnum at 35,000 psi. The deal is, and I've read this, the .45 Colt has more surface area to work on for that pressure than does the .44 mag because it's .451" vs .429" in diameter. Think of boring out an engine, what it does for torque.

So, I'm thinkin' it all makes sense when you take in to account the surface area at the back of the bullet is more efficient with what pressure you're working with which is essentially the same as in the .223. EUREKA!

I think I have a better grasp of the differences, now. I still don't want a fancy new upper, just have a better grasp of WHY an odd semi wildcat caliber would be more effective even in the same case with similar volume.

The base of that .458 SOCOM is WAY bigger than the base of a .223, so equal pressures, yeah, I'm getting it now.

 

[popper]

This should do well fro a 10" pistol.

 

[Varminterror]

I've used a lot of different rifles for hogs over the years. 99% of what I have killed have been with 22cal centerfires; a lot with 22-250 and 22H, but most of them with 223rem.

It does limit what shots I can take on the big pigs, but largely, I've never felt as if I missed opportunities on game because I was carrying a 223/5.56.

I have a 6.8SPC AR built with hog and deer in mind, and I have a 458socom upper with the same game in mind. But most often, I just take the 223/5.56.

 

[Paul7]

The owner of the hog hunting ranch I go to doesn't like the .300 Blackout, he said he's seen some hogs shot to literally no effect with them. He also doesn't allow the .223/5.56 anymore.

My 6.5x55 has worked well for me on about a dozen hogs, all DRT using factory ammo.

 

[RPRNY]

Deer and hogs will die from the same rifles and calibers in about the same way. In many jurisdictions, 22 caliber is prohibited for deer. As to 300 BO, imho, it's all gimmick and niche.

The yummy little eating pigs of 80lbs and less will probably fall to 62 grs 223 bullets with decent shot placement just as well as a 30 cal + bullet. But the big fellows simply will not. I'm sure that Tommy Tacti-Kewl with his AR whatever and 12-60 x 80 scope can put his itty-bitty little bullets into Hogzilla brain stem every single time. Frankly, go for it. Feral pigs are vermin and want putting down, but hosing them with 223 and leaving them to a long suffering death goes against my personal ethics.

If one wants to put hogs down and not have to go after them, big pigs want big holes. In my opinion, having done a lot of hog hunting in TX, 6.5mm 123 grs is the starting point for hogs. If someone loves their 243 and shoots well with it, go on. But there's not much long range hunting for hogs in most locales where they are present. A 30-30 lever gun is about the best all around pig rifle there is. For night hunting any rig with a decent scope and light that will do minute of pig at 80 yards and deliver decent holes in the vitals is great. I have used everything from 6.5x55 up through 12 ga slugs. All good. I really like 8x57 and 35 Krag. My new favorite for line hunting in the day is the 626 Pigpocalypse a .626" 370 grs musket ball over 93 grs of 2 ffg for @ 1350 fps in Brass from a rifled 20 ga H&R. Makes big holes, feels like a poor man's dangerous game rifle

2" groups at 100 yards, twice as far as I need it.

 

[redbullitt]

I like the 300 blk with proper bullets. Those 110 barnes are spendy, but they seem to kill things very well. It would just depend on the application to me. Close off a feeder? Quiet 300 blk all the way. 556 with good bullets will get it done too, but just make more noise. Just depends what you want! Slow and quiet or loud and fast, either way can work I think.

I will say the 300 blk has the advantage of using cast bullets. I can group a 250g NOE FN or HP under 2moa at 100 yards consistently out of my 300blk bolt action. If I load them meticulously 1.5 moa or a little better is common. Never shot anything but targets with it, but I think a properly placed shot will smack a hog pretty hard. Those bullets really tend to penetrate like crazy. Fast 150g WFN bullets will get the job done too, though with more noise. The benefit? SUPER CHEAP shooting and SUPER CHEAP pest control. I am not one to throw good bullets at pests unless I need to lol.

Put either bullet where it should go and you will be fine.

I like the ar10 in 308 for the job myself lol, OR 458 socom all the way. THOSE two will hammer them if you happen to be after big bacon.

I like that 626 a couple posts up lol. Looks like fun!

 

[Varminterror]

The SOCOM should work to 50-75 yards, perhaps 100, more range than I need, anyway. I DON'T think it's a .45-70, though.

It works farther than 50-100yrds, but you're right, it's NOT a 45-70. The Socom gets close to factory/standard/SAAMI level 45-70 loads, close enough it's fair most guys call it the same, but only with the lighter bullets. Once you start talking about the heavyweights, the large case 45-70 starts walking away from the Socom, and if you give yourself the opportunity to load proper 45-70 loads in a Marlin, it leaves the 458socom in the dust.

But it's still plenty potent. A 300-350grn bullet leaving the barrel at 1700-1800fps will flatten any deer it hits, way farther than most guys can hit it. Standard Hornady Leverevolution 325FTX in the 45-70 killed a buck for me at 250yrds (30" drop), leaving a Marlin Guide Gun at 1790fps. I haven't taken anything with the SOCOM at that range, yet, but I can shoot the same bullet at almost the same speed...