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AR15: Purchasing a new rifle, but which and why?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by meanmrmustard, Oct 6, 2012.

?

Which to buy?

Poll closed Nov 5, 2012.
  1. Del Ton Dissipator

    5 vote(s)
    5.5%
  2. Sig M400

    16 vote(s)
    17.6%
  3. PSA PA-15CR

    10 vote(s)
    11.0%
  4. S&W M&P Sport...again!

    26 vote(s)
    28.6%
  5. A PSA middy upper, BCM BCG, lower to be named "franken rifle"

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
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  1. Girodin

    Girodin Member

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    I just thought I'd note that you can get a Noveske uppered gun for about $1K, or roughly the price of the colt, if you shop smart and don't have to have it tomorrow. Their N4 light upper which is the configuration you want runs about $800. If you wait for Midway to have a $100 off on orders over $xxx sale it becomes about $700. That gives you nearly 300 to do a lower. I'd also note the Noveske comes with a Vortex flash hider which is probably $50 more than the A2 birdcage on the colt (and is much more effective in my experience shooting in low light).

    Honestly though, it sounds as if for your uses you likely wouldn't see any real difference between the colt you are getting and the gun described above (or a PSA or BCM for that matter). If you are going to shoot irons from field positions you will never notice the difference in accuracy. It sounds as if the gun wont be shot suppressed and not run real real hard. I doubt you'll ever feel bad about your Colt.

    Most of the critiques I see about light use clearly come from folks that have no training in using a light and don't really understand the how and why of using a light.

    Did that involve shooting right into the light? Try that force on force with an airsoft. I think it is probably true that a very bright light in the eyes will daze some people. Also I doubt that all bad guys in all situations are walking around gun out ready to instantly engage a light source. That said to act as if a light couldn't ever draw fire is naive.

    There is a lot more to using lights, and a lot more issues to consider, than most people think.
     
  2. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    I'm sure that I'll be happy with the Colt, assuming as I've said, it's correctly built this time.

    Trained or not, a weapon light on this rifle isn't practical for me.
     
  3. SW40

    SW40 Member

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    Whats wrong with Del-Ton these days? I have the Del-Ton Extreme Duty 316 that has everything the Colt 6920 has with plenty of rounds through it and no issues at all. I know a few years ago Del Ton BCGs had issues.

    PSA isnt top tier. DD, BCM, Colt, Noveske are and you pay top tier prices. Del Ton after they changed their manufacturing process and PSA I would put in second tier. (Old Del-Ton from 2010 and earlier I would put at bottom tier.)

    Smith and Wesson is probably between second and top tier. Kinda weird.

    That is if you believe in all this "tier nonsense". A gun is either reliable or not reliable. Anyways, I dont know much about that Del Ton Dissipator. But the others are solid choices I know.

    But as for whats on the list, Id go with the M&P Sport. Unless you will be using for HD in the desert you wont need a DC. Ive never had to use the charging handle on my ARs....just saying. Plus the cost savings would be great. Not sure what corners are being "cut" on the sport. But unless you are taking the AR into a war zone the Sport will serve you well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  4. Warp

    Warp Member

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    He decided on Colt 6920, believe it or not.

    If you go with "a gun is either reliable or not reliable", you still may want to quantify your chances of getting the gun that is reliable when you purchase a particular model from a particular manufacturer. Some seem to have a higher percentage of "reliable" than others. That's a simple way of explaining why we talk about rifles in tiers. It's only logical. There are a crap ton of AR manufacturers and as we all know they are not all created equal. Yet, it would be silly and basically impossible to attempt to rank every single manufacturer (or model) from best to worst. Much easier to grab similar quality manufacturers/rifles and lump them together with their nearest kin.

    I don't disagree with any of your opinions or rankings.

    I do disagree with the theory of buying a DelTon because they moved up in quality in the last couple of years. For such a substantial purchase (for me, and seemingly for the OP as well) I want as much confidence as I can get, and I just can not be confident in a company that was making a sub-par product just a couple of years ago. There are too many options that have been making great stuff for too long. I'd rather go with one of them.

    If I were to step down from "Tier 1" I would probably do as you suggest and get a Smith and Wesson. I don't know that it would be a Sport, maybe I'd shop around for a well priced M&P. Or maybe it would be a Sport.

    I'd go PSA over DelTon as well. But Smith and Wesson over both.
     
  5. henschman

    henschman Member

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    FYI the excellent barrels that Noveske uses, with the double thick chrome lining, are made for them by FN. PSA sells mil-spec uppers with the exact same barrels for significantly less money.

    I know the OP already decided on a Colt, but several members were raving about the quality of Noveske barrels and talking about how they are higher tier than PSA and whatnot.

    Mr. Mustard, I hope you find an acceptable Colt, and enjoy! I would definitely re-consider on the rifle mounted light though. I hate needless accessories as much as the next guy, but a good light is far from needless. Quite the opposite actually. There are some very sleek ones like the aforementioned Surefire and Streamlight TLR that don't add much weight at all to a KISS rifle. Check out some training videos online about night firing and light use, and hopefully you will see how helpful it could really be in a night time gunfight (which is of course when most of them go down).
     
  6. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Do you have a verifiable source indicating that those barrels are exactly the same?

    BTW: I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure that PSA no longer meets the "mil-spec" designation on their uppers as they no longer MPI the bolts.
     
  7. WinThePennant

    WinThePennant Member

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    Do what I did and buy a BCM BCG and install it in a PSA barrelled upper assembly.

    Honestly, I don't know if FN makes PSA or if PSA uses FN's steel blend. Either way, I really like PSA's barrelled uppers. And, I love the price.
     
  8. FitGunner

    FitGunner Member

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    I did a low cost build for my AR. All total came in at $600 and it could have been less by choosing a cheaper bcg and charging handle. Now PSA has their complete uppers for even less than I paid a few months ago. It does everything I want (plinking/HD) without costing $1k. BCM makes some great stuff.
    PSA mid-length light profile 16"
    BCM bolt carrier group
    BCM gunfighter charging handle
    New Frontier Armory complete lower (yes it is polymer but I trust it after seeing the amount of abuse it can take)
    Magpul back up rear sight
     
  9. henschman

    henschman Member

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    The M-16 bolt carrier groups that PSA sells on their website for $139.99 are HPT and MPI. I called and spoke to one of their reps to verify this before ordering.

    As for the barrels being the same as Noveske, well, Noveske states that these barrels are made for them by FN. Palmetto also sells AR barrels made by FN that have the exact same description (double thick chrome lining, machine gun steel, HPT/MPI). It makes a lot more sense that these are the same barrels than it does to think that FN has 2 different production lines for this type of barrel, one that makes them with excellent quality to sell to Noveske, and one that makes them with less quality to sell to everybody else. So I guess my question to you would be, do you have a verifiable source saying that they are not the same as other FN barrels of this type?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  10. Warp

    Warp Member

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    No, I don't have a verifiable source saying they are not the same. However, I don't like to make assumptions and then tell people it's a fact.

    You flat out stated that "PSA sells mil-spec uppers with the exact same barrels for significantly less money.". But you do not know this. There is already far too much misinformation being spread to just make an assumption and start telling people that it is fact.

    Also, even if they were all made on the same line that still doesn't necessarily mean they are equal. Consider this: Wolf Match Extra and Wolf Match Target (.22lr ammunition) are exactly the same. But not. They are all made the same, but when each lot is tested for accuracy the ones that perform better become Match Extra, the ones that perform acceptably (but not to the higher standard) become Match Target. Production and testing/QC methods like this are not uncommon. So, even if your assumption about those barrels by FN is true, and they are all made to the same specs on the same line, that STILL doesn't necessarily mean that they are "the exact same", as even then Noveske could be getting the "cream of the crop". Which they would surely be paying for, thus explaining the cost difference to the end consumer.

    I seriously think that it is a bad idea to just make assumptions and then go around telling people that it is fact.
     
  11. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Do you have a link to this product?

    I am fairly certain that things have changed.

    Example: I see this product (out of stock)

    http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...lt-carrier-groups/m16-bolt-carrier-group.html

    Read carefully. Nothing about HPT or MPI. I have asked about products like this, of PSA directly, on another forum. They beat around the bush and never actually answered the question directly. Given the listing + their refusal to clarify I can come to no conclusion other than them not being HPT or MPI.

    This would explain why they don't just call it a mil-spec item, but instead hand select which aspect of the item meet the mil-spec and tell us about those.


    Edit: For any body interested, here is the thread over on M4C where I (and at least one other poster) tried to get a straight answer out of PSA (or anybody) about whether or not their bolts were HPT/MPI. PSA never did respond directly to such a simple inquiry.

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=108867

    Look for posts by myself and "Pork Chop", if you are so inclined to look further into this issue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  12. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    On a side not from the PSA info being batted back and forth, took an extended lunch with my buddy whom I talked into buying the Sport.

    We decided to make a range trip, but all he had (against my advice) was a dry case of Herters. One must do what one must do, plus, it's his gun not mine.

    It ate, fired, and spit out 200 rounds of steel like it was mad at it!!!:evil:
     
  13. Infidel4life11

    Infidel4life11 Member

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    Thats a good deal. The only reason I don't shoot steel out of my CMMG is because it voids the warrenty. My Sport and RRA M4gery chew it like no one's business.
     
  14. marine 97-03

    marine 97-03 Member

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    M&p sport ......
     
  15. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    May be a possibility if I keep bugging out over another Glock.
     
  16. Okiegunner

    Okiegunner Member

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    MM,

    You and I have corresponded a couple of times. I am sure the Colt will serve you well.

    You know...you always here that a lower is a lower is a lower. Yet try and find a BCM or LMT, etc., lower in stock. They do not exist!! A quality lower must count for something. (which I am sure the 6920 has)

    I have been very happy these past few weeks with my Del-ton Echo H barrel carbine. Fits together very tightly and shoots just fine. Sorry, I digress a little bit.

    Just to let you know...Riflegear has a DD made upper with a 1 in 7 CHF, CL, made by FN, with a YHM gas block, for $379.00. I am going to a BCM FA BCG and the BCM (Vltor) "Gunfighter" CH. Some YHM Diamond Series quad rails along with a DD vertical grip. Should be about $580.00.

    Now...what I need is a good quality lower to add this upper to (and some premium optics)

    Anyhow, without the optics...should be able to field this for less than 1K. Of course, you are probably able to field the 6920 for no more than what I am doing, AND, receive a complete rifle from the beginning!!

    Just two different routes for the same purpose I suppose.

    Anyway...I am still searching for that quality lower, any suggestions?

    Gunner
     
  17. kyletx1911

    kyletx1911 Member

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    so sir tell me whats wrong with delton? i own one and after 3k rds nary a problem
    i get that most think that del-ton is a pos but i will put it up against anything else, fit and finish compared to others no.chromed lined no. tac fan lovers special no. but for 800.00
    mag-pul all round in .556 it does the job!!!! target pics are from 50-75 yards with a 20mph wind open sights just scoped it out with a redfield 3x9 400 should close the groups up.
     

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  18. powder

    powder member

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    $800 for the SIG M400 shipped, no CC fees or sales tax on GunBroker.

    Middy, quality, excellent company for warranty work. Get some!
     
  19. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    The 16-BC?
     
  20. Warp

    Warp Member

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    I view things the opposite way. If hundreds and hundreds of hard earned dollars to be spent on an item, it needs to prove to me that it is worth that expense.

    So, you tell me...why does the Delton deserve $800 of somebody's hard earned money?
     
  21. kyletx1911

    kyletx1911 Member

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    its proven it self to me no problems runs every thing i feed it does everything i want it
    to what more proof do we need?
     
  22. Warp

    Warp Member

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    The specs must really suck if there isn't a single thing you can point out to justify spending $800 on it.

    And I'm sorry if this offends you, but one random person on the internet claiming to have a few thousands rounds without problems through one single rifle is nowhere near proof enough to justify me recommending somebody spend $800 on one.

    When you say it does everything you want it to...what is that?
     
  23. kyletx1911

    kyletx1911 Member

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    you win still learning about specs etc so you have proven that you are smarter than i.
    sleep well what i want it to do is hit what i aim at
     
  24. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Why did you choose to purchase it?

    Can you quantify "hit what I aim at"?
     
  25. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Leave him be, man.

    We know the DTI is no DD or Noveske, but they're decent rifles with affordable price tags. Unless you're going down the mil-spec list and valuing the rifles based on this (relatively unimportant) criteria, whatever rifle performs with a level of accuracy and reliability that you deem OK is a good rifle for you.

    Personally, I have yet to see a DTI that didn't run just fine. I'd say they're worth what they go for. For an assembled rifle, I'd rather spend a little more for another Armalite, but if building one, it's hard to beat the value DTI represents; You can assemble a complete, no-frills M-4gery or middy for $600.
     
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