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Are Colt ARs getting hard to find?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by castile, Feb 19, 2020.

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  1. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Coming over here to slam the Python now? Some folks never miss an opportunity to bash Colt.

    What company isn't a different company than it was "back then?" Colt had an aging workforce; it's called turnover, and it's pretty normal in the manufacturing businesses, especially in a specialized field without many job-seekers looking for factory jobs. Colt also had a lot of aging machinery and tooling, but there've been those who've actually been in the factory in the past couple years (have you?) and seem to think that Colt is on the rise again. Also, as one who actually works in a field where we've received new Colt M-4s regularly over the years, I'm not seeing them "plagued with operational issues," just the normal wear, tear and parts breakage common to heavily-used weapons. While not germane to this thread, Colt's new Cobras and King Cobras have been receiving considerable acclaim. And as far as the new Python, try and keep up.

    Pretty easy to detect the posters who come around only to bitch about the state of things.
     
  2. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    I should have said BETTER, not different. But I was trying not to ruffle the Colt fanboy's feathers too much. Seeing as how sensitive some of them are. It obviously didn't work.
     
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  3. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    I've got a better question. Name one that survived period, who weren't acquired by an investment company? Why do you think these bundled purchases are packaged and made in the first place? It's not because these companies are raking in profit.

    They take several financially poor companies, (Remington, Marlin), and bundle the complete purchase with a few that are good. (Bushmaster, DPMS, (Panther Arms). In order to make the whole thing financially feasible.

    It's not what anyone really wants. It's the only way it can happen from a monetary standpoint. Or else banks won't loan them a dime. One helps erase the others bad debt and poor credit. A bit like when a financially train wrecked woman marries a wealthy guy. She gets to go shopping again, because suddenly all of her credit cards once again work.

    There is so much wrong here, I don't know where to even start. First off, let's get real. Of course these companies like Cerberus Capitol Management, who put up the cash for the Freedom Group buyout of Remington, DPMS, (Panther Arms), Marlin, H&R, Bushmaster, and a few others are in it to make money. Do you think they are in it to lose money? More importantly, if it weren't for the Cerberus buyout, many of these gun companies like Marlin and Remington would have gone out of business long ago.

    Remington was on the verge of bankruptcy. They had law suits galore. A factory that was falling apart. Equipment that was so old Christopher Columbus brought most of it over on the Santa Maria. Not to mention a factory full of high priced, aging, tribal knowledge workers. Marlin was in much the same sinking boat. This buyout, regardless of how much you hate it, saved those companies from extinction. They NEVER would have survived on their own.

    It took millions of dollars in venture capital to make that happen. Where was it going to come from? Banks wouldn't loan them a dime on their own. They consolidated manufacturing wherever they could. (Moving assembly of DPMS, Remington, and Marlin guns under the same roof was one). Remember, they purchased Remington, "As Is". That means pending legal action and all. That alone was a mess that ended up costing tens of millions of dollars to clean up. You never know how these law suits are going to pan out in a courtroom.

    No one else would have, or for that matter could have done that. Both Remington and Marlin would be long gone by now. Remington STILL may be gone. They are struggling as we speak to stay afloat financially. Even AFTER the Freedom Group's massive cash infusion. Marlin, fortunately is back on the road to recovery.... Thanks to them.

    Yes, quality suffered temporarily until many of these factories could be relocated, new people hired in more cost effective locations that cater to business. Instead of taxing and unionizing it to death like New England has. Purchasing new equipment, and getting it up and running with new tooling, programs, fixturing, not to mention people. Would going bust have been better? Because that is exactly what would have happened.

    These companies like Cerberus Capital Management have a Board Of Directors, along with stockholders to answer for. They can't just do what they want. Or what you as a gun owner think they should. If they don't make money through this entire lengthy process, their investors will dump them like a hot brick. Then what? It is difficult, if not impossible to manage quality properly on bad equipment. It's even worse when you're trying to do it while MOVING. There is always going to be a downside to something like this, no matter how it's played.

    Does your wife cook 5 course meals when you are in the middle of a move, and her kitchen is packed up in boxes? Or do you eat at Burger King for a few days until you get settled? This is 10,000 times worse. I worked for a large manufacturing company when they moved. It's a disorganized disaster, because you cannot shut down production.

    The bottom line here is the people you are pointing the finger at for bad quality, are the same exact people who SAVED these companies from financial destruction, that would have ended their existence forever. There were problems along the way. A lot of them have since been worked out.

    I've purchased 2 new Remington guns since the buyout, and both of them show the same fit, finish, and quality, all my 1980's DuPont Remington's have. So be happy they're still around. And as I said, pray and hope that even with all of this, Remington survives, as they are continuing to struggle..... Colt is another story all together. They have been making disastrous business decisions for decades. It has all finally caught up with them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  4. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Whoa off topic diatribe. Not sure where this rant came from but there is more wrong in this post than right about Remington Outdoor Company brands. Start a new thread and I will join in but we are discussing Colt here.

    Remington could use the cash injections Uncle same periodically gives Colt. Even when FN gets the primary contract Colt always seems to gets a second source contract out off it o hello keep the company alive. Colt has been propped up by Uncle Sam so many times and yet still went bankrupt how many times? Two IIRC and nearly bankrupt 3-4 other times if not for Uncle Sam and similar saviors. Remington has only done it once so far and wit far fewer handouts from Uncle Sam.
     
  5. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    He made the post. I answered it.

    But you are somewhat correct. Cerberus did for both Remington and Marlin what the government did for Colt....... Until the big contracts dried up. When money comes from the private sector, (Remington, Marlin), it is always better managed, and has stricter terms, than when it comes from the taxpayer, (Colt). The government doesn't have to show a profit to stockholders.

    Instead, the government seems to teach the companies they deal with, what they themselves are great at. Namely how to waste money through poor management. The difference is they have an inexhaustible supply... Both the taxpayers and the printing presses.
     
  6. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    Then take the time to point it out like I did. Don't sit there and play, "hit and run" in the name of "thread drift". That's B.S. pure and simple. And you know it.
     
  7. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Like I said start a new thread about Remington and I will be happy to jump in but that discussion does not belong in a thread about Colt and Colt ARs.

    Not sure if this is more on topic but I will try. I guess I am a "Colt hater." Never really thought about it that way until this and a few other recent threads about Colt here on THR but I don't own and have never owned a Colt branded firearms. Hate might be too strong I simply have no desire too own them as they don't do what I want.

    I am not a fan of single action revolvers and if I was it would be Schofield not Colt user (love top breaks!)

    I am not a fan of Colt double action revolvers, cylinder release goes the wrong way. I have spend too many years competing with S&W revolvers and the Colt are not competitive in my sports and over priced due to scarcity and collector status.

    And to come completely back on topic I hope. I got soured to Colt ARs from my personally start in ARs. I did not buy my first AR until ~2007 IIRC. The 94AWB had sun-set and I was shooting a lot of USPSA at the time and had borrowed an AR to go shoot a 3-gun match with my USPSA buddies. Now I had the 3-gun bug and needed an AR for that sport. In my research I learned about Colt use of large pin fire controls and over-sized take-down pins (from a no-doubt Colt-hater thinking about it in retrospect) but that colored me against Colt. The idea of a company making non-standard parts for the civilian market when by 2007 there was a rapid growing number of AR makers making "standard" lowers and uppers I was very put off by that. Ultimately I bought a Rock River Arms AR for my first AR and despite adding six more ARs (in four other cartridges) since that first one I have never really given Colt another serious look because they never offered me something new or innovative to draw me back in.
     
  8. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Hmm, oh yeah, I remember, the question was "are Colts getting harder to find and are the prices going up?"

    Anybody been looking for a Colt and have any answers to those questions based on actual searches?
     
  9. mcb

    mcb Member

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    I have not but I have not been in a gun shop since this thread started. I need some powder so I will check out the new and used racks the next time I am in the FLGS. The last time I was in Cabelas buying primers a few weeks ago I don't remember seeing any Colt ARs there, very few ARs in general. IIRC there were several Colt revolvers (no new pythons) in the new gun display and one whole small displace case of used Colt Revolver is the Gun Room including a well used by good decent condition 4-inch Python priced at $1799 IIRC.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  10. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    That's better. And I can agree with most of what you said. While I own several Colt's, (mostly early production AR's and 1911's, coupled with a few of their earlier revolvers), I'm not a fanboy in the least of their more recent stuff. Nor am I a "hater".

    I just don't like it when companies keep tripping over the same problem, over and over, without ANY positive attempts to rectify themselves. Colt's list of failures is both long and distinguished. And NO gun company has had more financial opportunity to improve themselves than Colt has had....... And failed each and every time. One only has to look at their current status to prove that.
     
  11. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    You sound like someone in that field....If you want to start another thread I am all in...but don't want to be the one that kills this thread.
     
  12. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Festrunk-Brothers-NBC.jpg
     
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  13. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    You're a lousy guesser.
     
  14. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    By your blind sucking on that form of making money with zero real work.....second guess Real estate agent.
     
  15. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    Saving 2 companies, (both Remington and Marlin), from financial destruction is, "zero real work" in your eyes? You've got a real convoluted concept of success.... And you're wrong again.
     
  16. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    They did not "save" jack. Me thinks you are one of two things.....read one paper on how business works, or very close to those that "save" companies, and oddly enough they tend to read that same ONE paper.
     
  17. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    You're not very bright are you? Not only that, you have taken the time to prove it. First off, neither Remington or Marlin would be here selling guns today, if they had not had a high amount of capital infused into both of them. There was only 2 ways that could possibly happen. Borrow the money, which they couldn't because they were worth more dead than alive. And no bank would loan them a dime. Or be gobbled up by a large holding company, and bundled together with several companies in the same, or better financial position. And spread out the financial risk by doing so. That's it.

    Second, if you're so infatuated about what I do, all you had to do was click on my name. But seeing as you can't even figure that out, it's for certain you don't have a clue as to how business works, or the financing which supports it. So you guess at both. Because the term, "me thinks" doesn't resonate too far with you, does it?
     
  18. mcb

    mcb Member

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    You guys really should start a new thread. Freedom group (Cerberus) has not owned Remington et al since May of 2018. Freedom group killed Para Ordnance, The Parker Gun Company, and H&R Firearms. Freedom group and its mismanagement is why Remington et al went into bankruptcy in early 2018. The new owners (since emerging from bankruptcy in May of 2018) JP Morgan and Franklin Tempelton have since killed Bushmaster, DPMS, Tapco and for all intents and purposes Storm Lake from within the Remington family of companies. Remington, and Marlin by extension, are in the worst condition either company has been in their 204 and 150 years of existence. They might be in worst financial condition than Colt currently is (yes a weak attempt to stay on topic). Start a new thread!
     
  19. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    You can Monday morning quarterback what they did after the fact. It does not change the fact neither one would be alive today if not for the Cerberus buyout.
     
  20. mcb

    mcb Member

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    With that kind of saving you don't need corporate raiders. When Cerberus bought Remington in 2007 it was $252 million is debt. When Remington went backrupt in 2018 it was $950 million in dept. Cerberus saved someone but it sure wasn't Remington, they raped Remington and all the brands they brought into the Freedom Group. I don't think even Colt could survive Cerberus' kind of saving.

    Remington's and Marlin's fates are far from settled and the company's survival, if it does, will be despite Cerberus not because of Cerberus.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  21. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    A lot of Remington's financial issues were from the recalls and settlement of law suits that were ongoing long before Cerberus got involved. Some have estimated it could cost Remington close to half a billion dollars. They have already paid out tens of millions in past Walker trigger settlements. Not everything was Cerberus's fault. They bought into a legal mess, as well as into a company that was falling apart, and hanging by a financial thread. It's a miracle they've lasted this long. It still is a mess. A very expensive one, that seems to continue with no end in sight.
     
  22. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Right not everything is Cerberus' fault but they did very little to help reduce the damage from the inherited problems (other than throw money at it and accrue debt) and then under there management they created a bunch of new problems with the decisions they made. There is very little you can point to and say, "look there is something Cerberus made better at Remington." Their management team wasted money and people left and right. Remington has had four CEO's in the past 5 years, three from Cerberus and one from the new Banks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  23. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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  24. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    You folk are correct.....you can't win an argument with a guy that knows it all.
     
  25. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    Or in your case, one with a guy who knows nothing.
     
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