Are Combat Shotguns Obsolete?

[Inebriated]

On the battlefield, I wouldn't want one as my primary.

On the streets as LEO, I wouldn't mind one, but would likely opt for a carbine.

Heck, I'm even considering a Mini 14 or AR for the house. I love the shotgun, and if you told me that I could only use one long gun, or if I ran into issues where I had to sell everything, the shotgun is staying. It does a lot of things well, but in almost every specific task, there is something better. It pains me to admit it, it really does, but that's the way it is.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

It is then upon the Commanding Officer call based upon Mission Objective.

 

[Onmilo]

There are unit commanders that do not allow shotguns as battle weapons, even for breeching purposes.
I would do my merry best to get myself out of any unit that was run that way.
Limiting battlefield effectiveness is akin to sending out suicide squads,,,

 

[plumberroy]

Shotguns have never been a primary military. But is some situations they still have uses in combat

 

[torqem]

Since when are MP's directly involved in combat operations, other than directing traffic? The shotguns got used to guard prisoners, and not much else. The reason for that is if the prisoners grab it, they aint got much.

 

[TestPilot]

Excluding its use as a special purpose tool, like breaching gun,there are two things that a shotgun can do which a rifle cannot:

- Stronger power, compared to 5.56mm variety.
- Higher hit potential due to spread of shots.

Anything other than the above, rifle does it better. Rifles are generally much more ergonomic, easier to control, can be much more compact, and have higher capacity.

The problem with "combat shotgun" is that the whatever few adcantages a shotgun have is nearly nullified in the field.

The spread of shot pattern makes clay or bird hunting more effective, but it is not as if that spread is anything meaningful in terms of higher hit ratio in close quarters. It is not as if you are shooting a fist sized target where missing it at a matter of inch is a prevalent shooting scenario.

Also, even though a 12 gauge is more powerful than 5.56mm, etc., they are not that all mighty one shot stopper people often think they are. NYPD Stakeout squad seen extensive use of various guns in numerous real gun fights, and Jim Cirillo stated that the unit experiened multiple cases of 12 ga shotgun wound failing to stop. Cirillo actually preferred a .30 Carbine.

So, the power is definitely there. But, not enough to voluntarily giving up all other advantages of a rifle.

Another problem is that shotguns are very manipulation intensive. To quote Chris Costa, "If you are not shooting, you are reloading." I would not want a shotgun for my primary weapon even for this reason alone. In combat, I have important things to tend to, and I do not want to add more work on the list which failure can mean my death when I don't have to.

 

[bushmaster1313]

If I was approaching a stopped car on foot in a scary scenario, I would want my back up to have a shotgun pointed at the back of the head of the potential bad guy.

 

[Panzerschwein]

The AR is not king, IT IS GOD.

The shotgun can't do a single thing that the modern tac carbine in 5.56x45mm NATO can do, except the carbine can do it better. Comparing an M4A1 to a pump combat shotgun would be like comparing an F-22A Raptor to a Sopwith Camel. The AR totally dominates the combat shotgun in all realms. If you ask me, I think we need to get them out of the hands of the troops and invest in more PDW type full-auto tacticals.

 

[Safetyfirst]

Like the LWRCI UCIW Six8?

 

[Panzerschwein]

Yes Prime example right there. That looks like a super home D carbine. The combat shotgun just isn't obsolete these days, it's totally inferior to things like that.

 

[Dr. Sandman]

No, they're not. Why do you ask?

 

[PoserHoser]

Range and suppressive fire. Two vital things a shotgun can't do. It's a specialty weapon plain and simple.

 

[orangeninja]

For a main battle rifle? No. I agree with the above poster who said a primary combat weapon should be a radio (technically the brain but communications are vital too). Then again the same applies for the police, the radio, but for law enforcement applications the shotgun has much more versatility going for it than the carbine but in my opinion, takes more skill to properly use and apply in a use of force scenario without introducing a ton of risk and liability.

Even though I see the benefits of the carbine for home defense, to this day I still have a 12ga. next to my bed. There is just no arguing the capabilities of a shotgun in a close quarter situation. But if the world ended in a zombie apocalypse, the shotgun would not be my first choice as the cons outweigh the pros.

Cons:
Ammo is heavier
Limited range
Takes more skill and training to use effectively than a carbine (my opinion...ymmv)
Slower followup shots (see above)
Harder/slower to reload (see above)
Harder to aim accurately at distance (see above)
Lacks precision (but can be accurate in the right hands...see above)

Pros:
Hits harder than anything legally obtainable by the average person
Versatile loads (non-lethal, etc)
Can breach barriers (though shape charges or even a ram would be more effective and less dangerous)
Is inexpensive to make the initial purchase (a decent shotgun is less than half the price of a decent carbine...if that)

That said, when most people utter the magical words "for home defense" in a gun shop the first thing they grab 9 out of 10 times is a shotgun. Then idiocy really starts up like "just the sound of a shotgun being cocked with scare off a bad guy" or my favorite "you don't even need to aim, just point it" and all the other crap we've all heard countless times. The fact is most people have a shotgun they've never trained with, they have possibly never fired more than once or twice, loaded with rounds they don't even understand the capabilities of, and have a complete false sense of security about when in fact they are their own greatest liability. But I'll get off my soapbox.

Can a shotgun be fielded in a combat situation? Yes, and it has (WW1 and WW2 specifically in the Pacific). Is it the best choice? Probably not, though in a dedicated urban environment as part of a raid team? Sure, assuming the operator knows what they have and trains with it.

Is the shotgun obsolete? Not any more than a bayonet, a 1911 (or any .45), or the M1A/M14, or bolt actions. It is a specific tool for a specific kind of job and the fact that it is still in use speaks volumes about its application in those specific roles.

 

[PabloJ]

For a main battle rifle? No. I agree with the above poster who said a primary combat weapon should be a radio (technically the brain but communications are vital too). Then again the same applies for the police, the radio, but for law enforcement applications the shotgun has much more versatility going for it than the carbine but in my opinion, takes more skill to properly use and apply in a use of force scenario without introducing a ton of risk and liability.

Even though I see the benefits of the carbine for home defense, to this day I still have a 12ga. next to my bed. There is just no arguing the capabilities of a shotgun in a close quarter situation. But if the world ended in a zombie apocalypse, the shotgun would not be my first choice as the cons outweigh the pros.

Cons:
Ammo is heavier
Limited range
Takes more skill and training to use effectively than a carbine (my opinion...ymmv)
Slower followup shots (see above)
Harder/slower to reload (see above)
Harder to aim accurately at distance (see above)
Lacks precision (but can be accurate in the right hands...see above)

Pros:
Hits harder than anything legally obtainable by the average person
Versatile loads (non-lethal, etc)
Can breach barriers (though shape charges or even a ram would be more effective and less dangerous)
Is inexpensive to make the initial purchase (a decent shotgun is less than half the price of a decent carbine...if that)

That said, when most people utter the magical words "for home defense" in a gun shop the first thing they grab 9 out of 10 times is a shotgun. Then idiocy really starts up like "just the sound of a shotgun being cocked with scare off a bad guy" or my favorite "you don't even need to aim, just point it" and all the other crap we've all heard countless times. The fact is most people have a shotgun they've never trained with, they have possibly never fired more than once or twice, loaded with rounds they don't even understand the capabilities of, and have a complete false sense of security about when in fact they are their own greatest liability. But I'll get off my soapbox.

Can a shotgun be fielded in a combat situation? Yes, and it has (WW1 and WW2 specifically in the Pacific). Is it the best choice? Probably not, though in a dedicated urban environment as part of a raid team? Sure, assuming the operator knows what they have and trains with it.

Is the shotgun obsolete? Not any more than a bayonet, a 1911 (or any .45), or the M1A/M14, or bolt actions. It is a specific tool for a specific kind of job and the fact that it is still in use speaks volumes about its application in those specific roles.

Some people fear the worst, but in such scenario they will send out mercenaries (the so called contractors that seen duty in places like Iraq, Afghanistan,.... Killing and mayhem is way of life for them and typical civilian with AR or AK rifle is basically not in any way just like a ghost.

 

[PabloJ]

No, they're not. Why do you ask?

I would say some buy them for HD because cartridge can defeat body armor and magazine have high capacity.

 

[PabloJ]

I always thought certain convention did forbid use of weapon like shotgun in combat. Of course superpowers don't need to be concerned with conventions just like very rich don't have to follow laws or pay attention to our constitutional rights.

 

[Ash]

It was argued back in WWI that the shotgun violated the Hague Convention when the Germans were incensed that the US would use combat shotguns in the trenches. The US is the predominant power to have employed shotguns in the past (perhaps the only power in wars up to the 1980's). Evidently Hague does not apply.

As mentioned before, the shotgun has never been a primary weapon save perhaps for raiding parties during the War Between the States. However, it has always had a place and it still does.

Carbine more ergonomic than a shotgun? Please. A good shotgun is as ergonomic as it gets. In security roles it is a powerful weapon. It is easy to fire when the adrenaline is flowing - put your eye on the front bead and pull the trigger. Sure, it has limited rounds and is slower to reload (when you exhaust the loaded magazines for your carbine, they are painfully slow to reload as well). It also has limited range, which is why it was never a primary weapon on any battlefield.

But the statement that anything a shotgun can do, a carbine can do better is fanboi fiction.

 

[PabloJ]

I wanted AR in .300 Whisper or whatever "neo" designation is and found nice S&W camo gun at very good price but could not find suitable ammo ANYWHERE. I passed on that idea. I think this low velocity heavy bullet thrower is excellent HD proposition.

 

[ugaarguy]

The question has been more than sufficiently answered, and now we've wandered into domestic and international politics. We're done with this one folks.