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Are legal concerns over carrying handloads trivial?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Clark, Dec 20, 2005.

?

Are legal concerns over carrying handloads trivial?

Poll closed Jan 19, 2006.
  1. Yes, be afraid, very afraid!

    20 vote(s)
    15.7%
  2. We don't need no stinking factory loads!

    90 vote(s)
    70.9%
  3. No opinion. Where am I?

    17 vote(s)
    13.4%
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  1. Clark

    Clark Member

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    Some say you could be sued or convicted, others say it never happens.
     
  2. HSMITH

    HSMITH Member

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    I don't think it is a problem to use handloads. Either you are justified in your actions or you are not. I have never seen proof that someone was punished for using handloads or that use of handloads affected the outcome of legal proceedings.
     
  3. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    who knows?

    i think the short version is that some (search forums for ayoob) claim it's a distinct liability, and others say nobody's been convicted because of it before, so why bother?

    me? i carry handloads.
     
  4. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    I've seen factory loads with NO FLASHOLE. Nuff said.
     
  5. pax

    pax Member

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    No, I don't think such concerns are trivial.

    pax
     
  6. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Member

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    You guys do understand that trivial means the concerns are <strike>unwarranted, er, unrealized, er, groundless,</strike> er, not no big deal, right?
     
  7. RecoilRob

    RecoilRob Member

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    I got to watch the Bernard Getz (Subway Vigilante) Civil trial on TV and the Prosecutor tried to make a BIG deal out of him having several different kinds of ammo in the gun.

    Bernie gave a contorted and IMO somewhat confused explanation of why the different rounds were there.....but it made no difference in the outcome.

    I suppose if everything seemed even in a Jurors mind that using a handload might tip him/her over the wrong edge. But, I think it mostly a moot point. Carry what you want and make sure you use it properly if called upon.
     
  8. massad ayoob

    massad ayoob Member

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    Preview of coming events

    Hey, folks, let me save you some time and give you a preview of where this is going.

    On GlockTalk in the reloading section, this material was covered in a thread titled "Reloads for Carry" that ran from 12/12/05:rolleyes: to yesterday, 12/19/05, when it was shut down at 12:56 AM. A little less than two hours later, Clark opened another thread titled "Any One Got Any More Mas Ayoob Urban Legends," which lasted until this morning when it was locked by a moderator.

    The first of those threads includes the names of cases where handloads were a problem in court.

    Oh, and Clark ... put me down as one who would not use handloads in a defense gun. :rolleyes:

    Best to all,
    Mas
     
  9. bogie

    bogie Member

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    It's a matter of opinion. In some cases it's prosecutorial opinion, judicial opinion, or the jury's opinion.

    Personally, if I carry a handgun, it has Federal Hydrashoks in it. Why? Cops like 'em, they show good ballistic performance, and they ain't available as reloads... If I ever have to shoot someone with a rifle, it's gonna be with a handload - loaded to competitive standards... With targets from national and world matches to back it up, thank you very much...

    BTW, Mas, if that's really you, welcome to wherever we are... More than a few of us here likely know folks who you know, so if you can ignore a few of the more "interesting" goings on...
     
  10. BlackWidow

    BlackWidow Member

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    Clark,
    You get reprimanded on another board so you start a thread over here?
    http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=474765

    In case anyone is interested in what you have to say and not waste any more time that it taked to read the last thread you brought this up in see the link below.
    http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=471695

    I hope you don't continue with your mean spirited, nasty, opinionated drivel. Oh, and please, don't mention your balls.

    Your poll does not even make sense, did you even think through what you wanted to ask?
    Are legal concerns over carrying handloads trivial?
    Yes, be afraid, very afraid!
    We don't need no stinking factory loads!
    No opinion. Where am I?

    This is tired, man.
     
  11. Clark

    Clark Member

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    Yeah,
    I put in 5 years of posting at Glocktalk, and they banned me today without warning when newcommer M.O. showed up.

    So, you want to get me banned here too?
     
  12. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    i'd really like to hear from Mas, if that's really you.

    so please stop the personal attacks before this gets locked, as locking seems to be trendy these days.


    btw, Mas, the quote was from me, not clark. i don't know clark. never posted or read glocktalk. i'll go read the info on the cases. as i said, i carry handloads, so it's of some interest to me.
     
  13. BlackWidow

    BlackWidow Member

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    I am sorry but you got yourself banned.

    BlackWidow
     
  14. pax

    pax Member

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    Moderator Note

    Please stay on topic for the thread.

    If you have anything personal to say to another member, do it via email or PM. Don't inflict it on the rest of us!

    Whatever happened on another board is between that board & you. It doesn't belong on THR.

    Forum rules may be found here, for those who need a refresher.

    pax
     
  15. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    I guess since when I'm carrying a revolver it's C&B it doesn't matter to me - they're ALL handloads! :D


    Anyway, on a more serious note, whatever is most reliable in that particular firearm will be what's in it, whether that is factory or handload. Reliability is most important to me, along with accurate. Everything else can wait until I'm out of immediate bodily harm.
     
  16. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    Oh Brother...I have read several posts of Clark's on various other forums at various other times...This is not even worth my time...No argument as I decline to argue with a unarmed man...:D
     
  17. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I refuse to live in fear of lawyers.
     
  18. bogie

    bogie Member

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    I live in fear of anyone who tries to stuff .357+P+ loads in .38 specials...
     
  19. pax

    pax Member

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    Standing Wolf ~

    Does shoving a gun onto your belt mean you're living in fear of criminals? Of course not; it's actually quite the opposite. If you're equipped to deal with the criminals, if & when, you don't have to be afraid of them.

    Seems that's the way to handle lawyers, too. Be equipped to deal with 'em, if & when.

    pax
     
  20. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    thanks for the link, Mr Ayoob. it was a very interesting thread!

    i think all the questions i was about to ask were answered there, so i won't waste your time.


    your point about duplicated a factory load to practice with is not a bad idea. i'll consider that.

    but the risk vs reward still heavily favors handloading for me.

    thanks again for the court case references.
     
  21. massad ayoob

    massad ayoob Member

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    Pax:

    I will stay within your stated rules. I do owe it to anyone reading this, including both you and Clark Magnuson, to say that I did not know he had been banned from the other forum until I read his statement on this thread. I never asked that he be banned and I never asked that either thread be locked.

    All:
    I am curious to know who is responsible for the bar graph on the "poll." At the time I checked, only five respondents (HSmith, Taliv, Jerkface11, RecoilRob, and ThirdRail) had actually stated that they weren't worried about carrying handloads and implied that it was a trivial concern, but many more were listed under the question that appears to favor carrying reloads. Two, Pax and me, had listed ourselves as concerned with the matter and not thinking it trivial, but only one was listed.

    BlackWidow:
    Your comments are spot on. The wording of the "poll" reminds me of the sort of polls that the anti-gun groups use. "Question One: Are you in favor of convicted drug dealers being allowed to carry Uzis in schoolyards? Question Two: Are you in favor of REASONABLE firearms laws?" When everyone predictably says No to the first question and Yes to the second, they then call a press conference and announce, "Our poll shows that virtually 100% of the public wants to ban guns."

    Taliv:
    Nothing against you, bro. The reference was to comments made by the originator of this thread on the "other" forum, and made by him elsewhere many times and many places in the past. I am not attacking him here. However, if attacked I reserve the right to block and counter. :)

    Standing Wolf:
    +1 to your heartfelt statement, "I refuse to live in fear of lawyers." Same here. But, like Pax, I've found that when you give the opponent nothing to use against you and are fully prepared to neutralize his attacks -- because you understand his pattern of attack -- you are now truly to where you need not live in fear of him.

    Best to all,
    Mas
     
  22. pax

    pax Member

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    Mas ~

    Probably nothing sinister going on with the votes. I stated an opinion, but didn't click a vote on the poll. Didn't like the wording I guess. ;)

    pax
     
  23. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    since you're here, Mas... :)

    i think part of the risk equation there that's been the subject of much internet rumor is the "OMG HE HANDAODS!!1 HE ARE A GUN NUTT!1!!" line of thinking with respect to the jury's impression of a defendant's character. The whole GSR thing was new to me.

    as steve (i think) mentioned in the other thread, most of us shoot IDPA/high power/3gun etc and spend dang near all of our disposable income making things go bang. we have large collections and some of us put 10-20k or more rounds downrange each year.

    my question is, has it been your experience that those things make a difference on the criminal or civil side after an event? is there any defense against being painted as an extremist? when really, it's just a hobby with a practical side effect?

    thanks again
     
  24. massad ayoob

    massad ayoob Member

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    taliv:

    My first rule is, "Be able to predict where the attack will come, and have a proven counterattack strategy in place and ready to immediately launch."

    It's what we train to do in the street. We need to do the same when we train for the now almost inevitable aftermath in court.

    My first exposure to handload problems in court was NH v. Kennedy, the argument that "regular bullets weren't deadly enough for this guy, he had to make his own..." blah blah blah.

    It was defeated, thanks to an able defense lawyer and excellent expert testimony by Jim Cirillo. However, it was also a battle that wouldn't have had to be fought if factory ammo had been used...and it was an ordeal for Jim Kennedy, a good man who was wrongly accused.

    As time went on, I saw the GSR coming up again and again. I think it is a MUCH greater concern, and it is the primary reason why I recommend against handloads for defense as opposed to training/practice/hunting/competition, where I enthusiastically endorse the concept.

    Sure, they'll bring up the fact that you DO reload, that you DO compete, that you DO shoot a lot...and we'll shoot it down. Those are ARGUMENTS and OPINIONS, and we can win in both.

    GSR is hard science. It's there or it's not. The problems with admissibility of "evidence that was literally manufactured by the defendant" are almost insurmountable.

    As you noted, Taliv, duplicating your factory "duty load" at the reloading bench for PRACTICE AND TRAINING makes sense. There is simply NO reload that has a track record in anti-personnel use, so the argument that a certain load will protect you better than the best factory ammo is BS. It's an argument of "what if" versus "what is," and "what is" always beats "what if." If you need a 1" group at 25 yards (??) for self-defense, and your handload delivers that but your factory round doesn't, why not just go to a new pistol or a new factory load that DOES meet your standard? You don't need a $3000 investment to do that. See my article "What Price Accuracy?" in the 2006 American Handgunner Tactical Annual, now on the newsstands.

    The "...regular bullets weren't deadly enough for him..." argument is worth avoiding in and of itself, but it pales in comparison to how the relatively greater admissibility of GSR evidence in your behalf improves when you use factory instead of handloaded ammo in the actual shooting.

    Just my $0.02, brother; run it past your BS detector like you would anything else and use your own common sense.

    And thanks, Taliv, for being that rare person who actually checks the references and does the research before he posts his opinion.
     
  25. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    Mas, I understand what you're saying there. My previous question, sorry for the ambiguity, was not about handloading.

    What I think I heard you say is that if somebody with a motive other than justice tries to paint me as a gun nut because of my hobby, that's just an opinion and although legal defense is expensive, you've consistently, successfully convinced juries that IDPA competition and the fact taht i bought rambo on dvd from walmart doesn't have any bearing at all on the fact that "the deceased" attacked my family immediately before taking 8 rnds to the chest.

    i understand you're saying handloading makes that argument more difficult. i'm just trying to understand if IDPA and my dvd collection also make that argument more difficult. and more importantly, what can i do as you say to prepare for a counterattack? btw, i'll check out your article. thanks


    btw, while i'm not yet persuaded to carry factory loads, that 1" extra accuracy @ 25 yrd thing was... well... ***? if i'm still holding 5" groups at 5 yrds while somebody's attacking me, I'll be happy.
     
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