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Are lever actions safe?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by inkinskin, Jan 31, 2013.

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  1. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Member

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    Yes there is. Althought the SCOTUS is not in the habit of reversing itself, if a change did occur, then it could change again with newer justices. If it's not written in stone now, then another temporary change would also be temporary once we appoint more justices. That see-saw is exactly why SCOTUS does not like to bounce back and forth. We always have the ballot box, jury box, and ammo box if that doesn't work.
    Those issues were addressed in Heller/McDonald. The 2nd is now and forever more a "fundamental right", "incorporated under the 14th amendment" and applies "strict scrutiny". There is no grey there. That is forever more. We won.
    That was before the 14th amendment was written, but now it's incorporated to all the states as a fundamental right. Say it with me... "Heller/McDonald ruled the 2nd is a fundamental right applying to the states under the 14th amendment requiring strict scrutiny".
    We already won. The SCOTUS has already ruled in our favor.
    Just remember only ARMS are protected. Your old geezer hunting and sport guns are not protected by the 2nd and CAN be banned, confiscated and burnt in a pile in the town square, so I suggest you get yourself an AR15 to defend your old geezer guns. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  2. RPRNY

    RPRNY Member

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    Well Joe, I guess you're in a happy little smug place. Having been a lobbyist for over twenty years I will tell you authoritatively that no law written in any medium is forever and nobody is completed protected by the law. So, when they come for you and your guns, you can show them your post and tell them all about Heller and McDonald being written in stone. And I wish you good luck with that.

    Given what Cuomo and his lap-dog state legislature just passed in NY, I do not share your confidence.

    In the mean time, constant vigilance, a vocal and spirited offense against those who do not share your sense that further "gun control" is hopeless, and a healthy contempt for the sanctity of the law will guide my approach to the issue.
     
  3. readyeddy

    readyeddy Member

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    Thanks to Joe I now have a vision of her waving her panties in the air. My suffering knows no bounds.
     
  4. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Member

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    I just won't panic about it becasue I know my rights and I've read the case law. If the gun grabbers and chickenlittles want to get silly and start claiming the sky is falling, that's fine, but I know it's not.
    No one is comming for our guns. I went thru the last so called "AWB", that was before Heller/McDonald. Now we are stronger.

    I put a lot more stock into what the Supreme Court says than what Feinstein says. Apparently the chickenlittles think what she says is more important. It's not.

    ... and when the NY law is struck down by the first federal court that hears it you can come back here and tell us that I was right and you were wrong.

    BTW, stop voting for gun grabbing NY politicians. That would help too.
     
  5. inkinskin

    inkinskin Member

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    Thanks for the help guys. I think I am going to pick one up for my collection now. I am probably going to go with the classic 30-30 caliber. I am leaning towards a Winchester or a Marlin. If anyone had any other suggestions toward brands, please let me know.

    Thanks again guys.


    Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
     
  6. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

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    Howdy

    Without getting into the politics of it, I can give you some information about lever guns, I own several.

    Generally speaking, lever guns are divided into two different types, the ones that chamber 'pistol' cartridges, and the ones that chamber 'rifle' cartridges. 'Pistol' cartridges simply means cartridges that were short enough to be chambered in a revolver cylinder. The first lever guns fired these relatively short cartridges.

    The first successful lever gun was the 1860 Henry rifle, which chambered the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge. The Henry was made by the New Haven Arms Company. In 1866, the principal investor in the New Haven Arms company changed the name of the company to the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, bringing out the first true Winchester, the model 1866. This rifle also chambered the 44 Henry cartridge. The 44 Henry Cartridge was also chambered in some of the conversion revolvers of the day.

    In 1873 Winchester brought out the Model 1873 and unveiled the 44-40 cartridge with it. This cartridge was also known as the 44 Winchester Center Fire (44WCF). The Model 1873 was eventually chambered for 44-40, 38-40, 32-20, and 22 Rimfire. The last of the 'pistol cartridge' Winchesters was the Model 1892, designed by John Browning. The '92 was chambered for 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 and 25-20. The '92 was a much stronger rifle than any of the earlier toggle link rifles.

    In 1876 Winchester introduced the Model 1876. It was basically a stretched version of the Model 1873, designed for larger, more powerful cartridges than the 'pistol caliber' guns. The Model 1876 was chambered for 45-75, 40-60, 45-60, and 50-95 Express. These were powerful Black Powder cartridges, much to large and powerful to be chambered in a revolver.

    In 1886 Winchester brought out the Model 1886, which was chambered for the 45-70 Government cartridge. The Model 1886 was also designed by John Browning, and like the '92, it was much stronger than the toggle link Model 1876. The 1886 was eventually also chambered for the 45-90 and the 50-110 Express. These were very powerful cartridges.

    The Winchester Model 1894 was developed along with the 30-30 cartridge (30WCF). 30-30 was the first commercial Smokeless cartridge. The Model 1894 is also a very strong action.

    Marlin also produced lever guns, the Model 1894 was chambered for 44-40 as well as 38-40, 32-20, and 25-20. The Marlin Model 1893 was the precursor of the modern 336 Marlin, chambered for rifle cartridges. The Model 1895 Marlin is also chambered for rifle cartridges such as 38-55 and 45-70.

    Modern reproductions of the 1860 Henry, the Winchester Model 1866 and the Winchester Model 1873 are produced today by Uberti in Italy. They are chambered for a variety of 'pistol cartridges' including 45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40, 357 Magnum and 38 Special. Model 1892 replicas are made by a couple of companies today, and are chambered for a variety of 'pistol cartridges'; 45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40, 357 Magnum and the more powerful 44 Magnum and 454 Casull. The longer action Model 1894 Winchester has been adapted to 45 Colt, but frankly, they tend to be problematic. The longer action does not always feed the shorter cartridges well.

    Marlin has had trouble with their Model 1894 production since moving to the Remington plant in Ilion NY. The last I heard, 1894 production was still shut down while they ironed out the bugs. But there are plenty of older Marlin 1894s out there, made in New Haven before the move.

    There are always plenty of used Winchester 94s on the gun racks. Try to find one that was made before 1964 if you can. I just picked up one that was made in 1943. A real nice shooter.
     
  7. gunsandreligion

    gunsandreligion Member

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    after all the hunting videos of people shaking like a leaf from exitement, all the people I know who think they have the ability to shoot 350yds because they shot 3 shots at 200, all the people who gut shoot, miss, and have to track for a mile, I have finally met someone who undertands the importance of a good shot. My belief has been if you cant know your going for a DRT or have the animal run less than 50yds, dont take the shot. Most people act as if a lever is a beginners gun because its relatively short range, when they themselves regularily have to blame twigs, sticks, and grass for their exited misses/wounding. I cant agree more that 98% should never try for shots longer than 150, and I personaly am in that 98%.
     
  8. CarolinaChuck

    CarolinaChuck member

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    Ink,

    Since Winchester stopped manufacturing their model 94 lever action rifles they have become pretty scarce on the market as most who have them think they will never be seen in production again; and that may be true. As others have suggested, the 1894 design is old and has gone through many iterations starting in 1895, and newer designs/manufacturing have really outdated and out paced the original model 1894 in the market place. 7 1/2 million model 94 rifles were made.

    My brother in law has a pre 64, (I can not remember what year, but it may have been 80 years old then) cambered in 30-30 win that was handed down to him. He pestered me to death to give it a complete inspection and cleaning before he would shoot it. They are truly a piece of work and very well built. There was no doubt in my mind, or his either after the fact, that it would have lasted another 100 years before it needed to come apart like that. This would have been in 91 or 92.

    I have no clue why Winchester stopped making them. Don't know if it was the design ran its course, manufacturing time, loss of market share or a combination of all of the above. I do feel it was a mistake on their part. "Lever guns" are solid, and even the post 64 model 94 Winchester rifles are worth what they bare in the market.

    I have borrowed that rifle a few times hunting, but have never had an opportunity to take a deer with it. They will push a little over 150 yards, but I would pass on anything near 200. This rifle is fitted with a Williams rear peep sight, and I much prefer a good 1/2 buckhorn in that caliber. You can hit things out further, but it is like shooting a rainbow.

    My mom grew up in Denver CO living with her mother during the school months. During the summer months they would travel to Yellowstone and stay with my grandfather, who was a civil engineer building roads in the North West and up into Canada.

    My parents house was a gathering place for people all my life. We had a pool in the backyard and there was never a clue who you would find at the house when you got home. Even growing up, you never knew who you would find at the breakfast table when you got up; or later in life, who is there stopping by in the evening to pull a cork with my pops.

    I never quite understood why my parents were never phased or questioned me about all of us who came around their house with all our firearms. I just figured it was because I was a Marine, and they just accepted the fact we played with firearms. It is what we did.

    I cleaned off the kithcen table at the folks house and Lee, my brother in law, brought the Win 94 over. My mother walked into the kitchen and saw what we were messing with and said, "Oh, your granddad had one of those, he kept it over the front door and never left the cabin without it; kind of like you and I would do with a coat..." At age 31 I realized why my mother and father had never told me, or anyone, to be careful when they walked out the door of their house with a firearm. My mother had no fear of them.

    I never saw my mother shoot a firearm; to the best of my knowledge she may never have. This is the problem we have today. When I grew up, walking in or out of the house with a firearm, it was no different than holding a screwdriver or a skateboard. If she wanted to know anything, it was where I was going and when I was coming back. The same with my friends.

    Fearing firearms, or what ever is going to happen will eat you people up. Please, please... stop with all the anti gun BS and stop worrying. If everone with a Win. 94 has a box of 50 rounds, times 7 1/2 millon working rifles; that is more than one round for every man, woman and child in the United States...

    CarolinaChuck

    A side note: My mom passed away from cancer at home. She was a beloved and gracious women, who was both loved and feared in the community. All good tails are rooted in truth, but only a few have happy endings; and my mom would have never feared this one...
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  9. bearfoot

    bearfoot Member

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    Ok, this discussion brings up a question I've had for the last few weeks, regarding the new NYS ban which has, iirc, no provision for grandfathering. Since it is clearly unconstitutional, doesn't it only require a legal challenge/lawsuit to get it struck down?
    Similarly, Will any of DiFi's bill be allowed to take effect if it passes? (which it probably won't)
    Also, since the "assault weapon" definition is already changing (one feature instead of two, 7 rounds instead of 10) can it be legally viable at all?


    ok, so more than one question ... :cool:
     
  10. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Member

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    Dr. Randy Barnett, prominent law professor:


    Quote:
    So, when considering the constitutionality of bans on so-called military-style assault weapons, or restrictions on the capacity of magazines, senators should begin by asking whether the weapons being banned are in common use by civilians. When it comes to so-called assault weapons, like the AR-15, or 30-round magazines, the answer is clearly “yes.” Millions of such weapons and magazines are in private hands.

    That should settle the matter, but senators can go a step further and ask whether these or other measures are actually rational — to articulate the end they are seeking to accomplish, then assesses whether the means adopted actually match up with the purported end. Would they actually have prevented a mass shooting or ameliorated real crimes?

    This heightened “rationality review” could help ensure that the reason being articulated is the real reason for the law.

    For example, “assault weapons” are a made-up category of weapons that is based solely on cosmetic features that make them look like the fully automatic weapons used by the military. Banning them leaves other rifles that are functionally identical in their lethality and rate of fire completely legal. Moreover, far more powerful hunting rifles are left untouched by the law, as are shotguns. This is simply irrational and therefore unconstitutional.

    The same can be said for New York’s law limiting handguns to seven rounds, while allowing both active and retired police officers to keep their handguns that hold up to 15 rounds. If retired cops need 15 rounds to effectively protect themselves and others, then so do other citizens. Arbitrarily discriminating among Americans in this way is irrational and unconstitutional.
     
  11. HoosierQ

    HoosierQ Member

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    Not if you're a member of the 7th Cavalry, it's 1876, and George Armstrong Custer is leading you in battle!
     
  12. clang

    clang Member

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    If you believe the people who want to ban guns are rational and obey the Constitution, you are as mistaken as they are.

    It doesn't take a panicking "chicken little" to realize that.
     
  13. RPRNY

    RPRNY Member

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    Joe

    We have a Commander -in - Chief that draws up weekly death lists for his undeclared drone war, a President who has declared that US citizens that he feels are at war with the State can be executed without trial (and has done so) and an Administration that ordered gun dealers in the southwest to violate the law by selling weapons to straw buyers for the Mexican drug cartels so that they could "build a case " for stricter gun control. The Constitution clearly is not of relevance to the current regime. In their own words "what difference does it make? "
     
  14. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

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    Howdy Again

    I don't know why you think they are scarce, there are always plenty of used 94s on the used gun racks in these parts.
     
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