Are Manual Safeties on Striker Fired Handguns Heresy??

[TarDevil]

I'm wasn't saying let them run around with a gun, or handling them unsupervised.

So, is this a matter of semantics? Because what you are now saying is you, in fact, do not trust them with a loaded gun.
Yours, and apparently my, definition of "trust" are divergent.

 

[trackskippy]

It is getting boring, and you do the same.

Headed out now with a couple of mine right now for some quality range time and positive reinforcement .

 

[trackskippy]

So, is this a matter of semantics? Because what you are now saying is you, in fact, do not trust them with a loaded gun.
Yours, and apparently my, definition of "trust" are divergent.

Do you trust them in front of you with a loaded gun? I did, and I said that. I still do.

Lets straighten all of this out for once and all....what is the definition of "IS"?

This whole thing has just turned into an old women nit-picking match.

 

[Homerboy]

The truth of the matter is that while I own striker fired guns, and carry two different ones, I do not trust striker fired as much as hammer fired. Sticking one in my waistband is always taken with much more care. With a hammer I can place my thumb on there and not worry about it.

I carry the Ruger or Shield Plus because of weight and size, which is pretty much the number one thing for me when it comes to carry. Sure, I shoot my M&P 2.0 Compact better than I do my Shield Plus or Ruger, but I conceal the other two far better and more comfortably, and since I hit very well with either, just not as well as I do with the Compact, the slight loss in accuracy and shootability are a trade off I’m willing to accept. So I accept the trade off of a little less comfort with the striker system in exchange for less size and weight. I do mitigate that less comfort with a manual safety, something I am fine with on a hammer fired but I can certainly carry a DAO gun. I have 2, a 3953 and a 6946.

If they ever made a hammer fired gun in the same size and weight as the Shield I’d buy one immediately. If they ever make that striker control device for M&P’s I will have one on every one of them I own.

Everything is about trade off’s. I practice regularly drawing and flicking safety off. In the extremely unlikely event that I have to draw my weapon and the forgetting to flick the safety off gets me shot or killed, then that was my day to die. The odds are better a lack of one will result in an ND. Ask the LASD and the dancing FBI agent.

 

[Old Dog]

My comments in red...

Read anything into it you want, truth usually hurts, and I guess some can't handle it. Truth? I am not sure why you've chosen to contest my innocuous remarks... I put my big boy pants on today; I can certainly handle whatever version of "truth" is presently being spouted on the internet.

I've never said manual safeties are bad, any more than I've said a gun without one is bad. All I've said all along is, the user is the problem in 99.9% of the cases, and that is what needs addressed. I wasn't disagreeing with you at all about the user issue. You seem to have chosen to take my comments as such.

And my comments on the military and police are based on my first hand experience with a good number of both, and I stand by that. Just because you were in and they taught you, doesn't mean a whole lot. I'm not saying it's across the board, but its common enough to be scary. And as I've also said here, a basic training course is just that, basic, and just a start, not a graduation, which in this case, never happens. If you don't keep up with and maintain your training, you stagnate, you don't gain, or even retain.

Again, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I suspect that you haven't read many of my posts (other than those you chose to take issue with); I have stated, that, as a result of my experience over forty two years combined military and law enforcement service, I personally support and encourage the use of manual safeties for most firearms users.

 

[Old Dog]

Forgot to add that it could almost be extrapolated from some posts that there are folks that don't believe manual safeties on striker-fired pistols are necessary, by virtue of the fact some have decided it's strictly a user problem, not a gun/equipment problem, that is the real safety issue. As if by everyone obtaining the proper type and level of training, negligent discharges and "accidental" shootings will be prevented, because... it's a user problem. Hence, manual safeties on striker-fired pistols are really superfluous... everyone just needs to obey The 4 Rules, keep loaded guns out of the hands of children, and no mistakes will ever occur.

 

[trackskippy]

Look, this isnt rocket science. If the gun comes with a safety, use it, or dont, depending on what it is and what its on and how you feel about it (ie, I use the safeties on DA guns to decock, and then leave them off). And if it doesnt have one, understand what that means and act appropriately. And that last part applies to the guns with safeties as well.

I just dont see what all the hand wringing is about and the insistence by some, that people (assuming there is some basic competency there) cant safely handle a gun without an added manual safety and are going to kill the world with unintended discharges every time it comes out.

Looking at it from the other side, people who dont seem to have an issue with safely using guns without added safeties, have to wonder what those that insist on having them, are doing in their handling, that the gun is so scary, that they feel they cant safely handle it without the added safety.

It really isnt a criticism, its just a wondering, thats all. But if you question, the war starts.

From my experience, I reholster any of the guns I have and use basically the same way. Hesitantly, with attention. Ive done that so many times now, to the point that I really dont have to look at it while I do it, but I still do every time I can. As Ive said before, if you cant do that safely without thinking about it, you havent done it enough in practice. Simple as that.

If the gun has a thumb safety, I put it on just prior to reholstering. If it has a decocker, I decock as soon as the gun goes to low ready, every time, even if Im not going to reholster. That DA trigger has its own set of rules and if any of them have a higher risk of going off by "being touched", its them, so thats the drill there, or at least my drill. No manual safety, index the trigger finger to its staging point, guard the trigger and reholster the same as the others. Hesitantly, with attention.

This has worked well for me over the years, YMMV. Do what works best for you. And hopefully, practice it to the point of thoughtlessness.

Homers constant griping about LAPD's failure rates tells me they either need to upgrade their training, or upgrade the quality of their officers or both. Seems something is wrong there. But, if those numbers scare you, then its a scary thing. Kind of reminds me of the covid numbers.

 

[Homerboy]

Look, this isnt rocket science. If the gun comes with a safety, use it, or dont, depending on what it is and what its on and how you feel about it (ie, I use the safeties on DA guns to decock, and then leave them off). And if it doesnt have one, understand what that means and act appropriately. And that last part applies to the guns with safeties as well.

I just dont see what all the hand wringing is about and the insistence by some, that people (assuming there is some basic competency there) cant safely handle a gun without an added manual safety and are going to kill the world with unintended discharges every time it comes out.

Looking at it from the other side, people who dont seem to have an issue with safely using guns without added safeties, have to wonder what those that insist on having them, are doing in their handling, that the gun is so scary, that they feel they cant safely handle it without the added safety.

It really isnt a criticism, its just a wondering, thats all. But if you question, the war starts.

From my experience, I reholster any of the guns I have and use basically the same way. Hesitantly, with attention. Ive done that so many times now, to the point that I really dont have to look at it while I do it, but I still do every time I can. As Ive said before, if you cant do that safely without thinking about it, you havent done it enough in practice. Simple as that.

If the gun has a thumb safety, I put it on just prior to reholstering. If it has a decocker, I decock as soon as the gun goes to low ready, every time, even if Im not going to reholster. That DA trigger has its own set of rules and if any of them have a higher risk of going off by "being touched", its them, so thats the drill there, or at least my drill. No manual safety, index the trigger finger to its staging point, guard the trigger and reholster the same as the others. Hesitantly, with attention.

This has worked well for me over the years, YMMV. Do what works best for you. And hopefully, practice it to the point of thoughtlessness.

Homers constant griping about LAPD's failure rates tells me they either need to upgrade their training, or upgrade the quality of their officers or both. Seems something is wrong there. But, if those numbers scare you, then its a scary thing. Kind of reminds me of the covid numbers.

It’s not griping. I couldn’t care less. It’s cold hard facts. You said training makes a manual safety unnecessary. Here is a large department that puts its officers through a state approved training course. They get several weeks classroom, probably a week or so on the range, more than likely put through shoot or no shoot scenarios, both in practical assessments using live ammo and in written exams (I know I did and I’m sure California does, as well). They get more training than probably 99% of the gun carrying population (most can’t afford Black Water or Thunder Ranch), and right after they switch from the Beretta 92 to the M&P (I’m a fan. I have several), they have a 500% increase in ND’s. You say they must have been poorly trained. The same training worked fine for the Beretta. So at the very least a striker fired weapon requires more intensive training to handle them safely, something most can’t afford and will never get. If there was such a glaring stat that supported your argument, you’d be stating it over and over.

The federal agencies also have a pretty intense firearms training curriculum. Bottomless federal budget and all. Yet the dancing FBI agent let a round go. A friend of mine is a retired FBI agent. He held onto his Sig 228 until they pried it from his fingers. He personally witnessed two agents have a ND. One while suiting up for a warrant, and another who was putting the Glock into his desk. Nobody hit in either case, thankfully. The other agents covered for the shooters, as cops have been known to do. I’ve done it myself. If nobody is bleeding or there are no witnesses, it didn’t happen, so the stats that we do see aren’t even accurate.

 

[Kleanbore]

From my experience, I reholster any of the guns I have and use basically the same way. Hesitantly, with attention. Ive done that so many times now, to the point that I really dont have to look at it while I do it, but I still do every time I can. As Ive said before, if you cant do that safely without thinking about it, you havent done it enough in practice. Simple as that

Yep.

And you do have to do it every time.

And until you know that the gun is in a safe holster, pay a lot of attention to the muzzle.

 

[Meeks36]

I remember in elementary school in the 3rd grade, the idiot kid across the street shot HIMSELF in the hand with a BB gun. I think that I made a mental note to NOT be that idiot!

I do remember taking the State of Minnesota sponsored firearms safety class when I was 14. But by that time most gun safety had already been engrained into me. Even TV shows taught you to treat every gun as if it was loaded. The only thing that they taught in the gun safety class, that I didn't already know, was that at one time they made brass shotgun shells.

But what scared the crap out of me was that some kids FAILED THE TEST! These were also kids in farm country where everyone's dad had a least a rifle or a shotgun and hunting was very common. I thought "HOLY SH*T! Just how stupid are these kids?" And THEY are going to have guns in their hands?

I remember in elementary school in the 3rd grade, the idiot kid across the street shot HIMSELF in the hand with a BB gun. I think that I made a mental note to NOT be that idiot!

I do remember taking the State of Minnesota sponsored firearms safety class when I was 14. But by that time most gun safety had already been engrained into me. Even TV shows taught you to treat every gun as if it was loaded. The only thing that they taught in the gun safety class, that I didn't already know, was that at one time they made brass shotgun shells. The class was mostly common sense information. We watched a film. Listened to the adults talk about guns. Easy peasy.

But what scared the crap out of me was that some kids FAILED THE TEST! These were also kids in farm country where everyone's dad had a least a rifle or a shotgun and hunting was very common. I thought "HOLY SH*T! Just how stupid are these kids?" And THEY are going to have guns in their hands?

This is why I don’t goto public ranges or hunt public land! I see how most folks drive around here. Don’t want to anywhere near any of them w a gun. Yea there are range officers but it only takes a nano second for things to go bad. Stinks cause I can’t take all my kids shooting w me. Indoor ranges make me nervous. But I go on Monday when they first open. It’s empty. With an occasional retiree.

 

[trackskippy]

You said training makes a manual safety unnecessary.

I never said that. I said it decreases the likelihood of problems. Nothing is infallible, safety or no safety.

No matter how you want to spin things, unless there is some sort of failure with the gun, it still always comes back to the user if there is a problem. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

 

[Homerboy]

I never said that. I said it decreases the likelihood of problems. Nothing is infallible, safety or no safety.

No matter how you want to spin things, unless there is some sort of failure with the gun, it still always comes back to the user if there is a problem. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

It's not hard to comprehend. People make mistakes. Even "highly trained" people. Never blamed the gun. Glocks and other striker fired weapons are "less safe" than hammer fired or strikers with a safety. They are less forgiving of human error. Human error that even trained people make, and many don't even realize they made it until they are shown video. The stats support me. All you have been blabbering about is "training training training". Most people won't get any at all, still others will get piss poor training by someone who isn't competent, and the few who take the real time to learn that weapon system inside and out will have a better probability of no ND's, but still a higher probability than the guy with the same level of training using a different type of weapon.

And since you admit a safety decreases the likelihood of problems, why would you argue against erring on the side of caution? Afraid you're gonna fumble for the safety at High Noon during a quick draw?

 

[Old Dog]

Homers constant griping about LAPD's failure rates tells me they either need to upgrade their training, or upgrade the quality of their officers or both. Seems something is wrong there. But, if those numbers scare you, then its a scary thing.

If I may add, amount and quality of training is crucial, and I advocate for way more than ever, but it's far more than firearms miscues that indicate most PDs/SOs need to upgrade their training. I can tell you that in most understaffed agencies these days, the overtime is stupid crazy, and bad stuff happens as a result. Humans are never infallible, no matter how well trained or habitually regulated.

Fatigue and stress, in my experience, cause many of the stupid errors I've witnessed over the years.

 

[danez71]

I just dont see what all the hand wringing is about and the insistence by some, that people (assuming there is some basic competency there) cant safely handle a gun without an added manual safety and are going to kill the world with unintended discharges every time it comes out.

Conversely,

I just dont see what all the hand wringing is about and the insistence by some, that people (assuming there is some basic competency there) cant safely handle a gun with a manual safety and are going to get themselves killed by mishandling the gun every time they have to defend themselves.

Works both ways.

 

[JR24]

Conversely,

I just dont see what all the hand wringing is about and the insistence by some, that people (assuming there is some basic competency there) cant safely handle a gun with a manual safety and are going to get themselves killed by mishandling the gun every time they have to defend themselves.

Works both ways.

The thrust of the arguments in this thread has largely been the other way though. Most advocating for no safety are largely saying "do what you like" vs others claiming it's a disaster waiting to happen.

I still remain on the pick what you like and train appropriately crowd.

 

[trackskippy]

It's not hard to comprehend. People make mistakes. Even "highly trained" people. Never blamed the gun. Glocks and other striker fired weapons are "less safe" than hammer fired or strikers with a safety. They are less forgiving of human error. Human error that even trained people make, and many don't even realize they made it until they are shown video. The stats support me. All you have been blabbering about is "training training training". Most people won't get any at all, still others will get piss poor training by someone who isn't competent, and the few who take the real time to learn that weapon system inside and out will have a better probability of no ND's, but still a higher probability than the guy with the same level of training using a different type of weapon.

And since you admit a safety decreases the likelihood of problems, why would you argue against erring on the side of caution? Afraid you're gonna fumble for the safety at High Noon during a quick draw?

I was referring to the training, not the safety. You keep trying to put words in my mouth.

I also never said people dont make mistakes, even highly trained people. I do believe people who do have some training and constantly push themselves to reinforce that and try to improve their skills, are far less likely to have problems.

I really don't know any other way to say it that you would understand, so Ill say it again, safety or not, the gun is no more or less safe, if the user isn't safe with it.

If a person isn't willing to put in the time and effort to be competent and safe with the gun they choose or are issued, its still not the guns fault if they screw up.

If they choose not to get any training, or work regularly on their own to be safe and competent with the gun, how is that the guns fault if something goes wrong?

You were right a while back, this is now beyond boring. Good luck with whatever makes you feel warm, safe, and fuzzy. Hope you're still continuing to work at improving yourself on a regular basis. Wouldnt want you to fall behind.

Conversely,

I just dont see what all the hand wringing is about and the insistence by some, that people (assuming there is some basic competency there) cant safely handle a gun with a manual safety and are going to get themselves killed by mishandling the gun every time they have to defend themselves.

Works both ways.

It does work both ways, I believe I said something to that effect in the next paragraph after your quote.

 

[Homerboy]

The title of this post is “Are Safeties on Striker Fired Pistols Heresy?” Not pistols in general. Striker fired pistols. This became a safety vs no safety argument. I carried a 5946 for a while in duty. No safety. I own 2 other 5946’s, a 3953, and a 6946. I’d carry any of them without hesitation. I’d never carry a striker fired weapon without a safety. I’m “trained”. Been carrying for nearly 30 years. Too light a trigger and no hammer to thumb as I holster. I could carry an XD with the grip safety, but I don’t like the feel of an XD. I’d carry a Glock with the striker control device. I’d carry one of my M&P’s with a striker control device and no safety.

I don’t trust them without a safety of some kind. I’d still rather carry a hammer fired weapon but they don’t make them as small and light.

 

[amd6547]

From the report on the 500% increase. Seems like a lot factors besides manual safeties. Calls into question their whole training program…
“…We found that several factors apparently contributed to the significant increase. The first is that the lack of an external safety lever on the M&P coupled with inattention has led to unintended discharges in locker rooms, bathrooms and other locations. The second factor appears to be that some deputies are violating basic firearms safety rules by failing to follow the admonition to keep the index finger off the trigger until the user makes the conscious decision to fire the weapon. The new handgun is more sensitive in some ways than the Beretta and unintended discharges have risen as a result. Finally, weapon-light activation errors have led to a significant number of deputies reporting that they unintentionally pulled the trigger of their weapon when they intended only to turn on the light...”

 

[trackskippy]

The title of this post is “Are Safeties on Striker Fired Pistols Heresy?” Not pistols in general. Striker fired pistols. This became a safety vs no safety argument. I carried a 5946 for a while in duty. No safety. I own 2 other 5946’s, a 3953, and a 6946. I’d carry any of them without hesitation. I’d never carry a striker fired weapon without a safety. I’m “trained”. Been carrying for nearly 30 years. Too light a trigger and no hammer to thumb as I holster. I could carry an XD with the grip safety, but I don’t like the feel of an XD. I’d carry a Glock with the striker control device. I’d carry one of my M&P’s with a striker control device and no safety.

I don’t trust them without a safety of some kind. I’d still rather carry a hammer fired weapon but they don’t make them as small and light.

Where did you think things would go with a title like that?

Ever try a SIG P228, 239, 245, or the sweet little P230/232's? Seems like they would all fit your bill perfectly, although the 230s are a 380. Still, they are sweet shooters with sweet DA triggers. Just remember to decock.

 

[JR24]

XD-E is reasonably light and has a hammer, a bit heavy for the size and low capacity for my taste but still fairly slim.

Then of course there's always the HK P2000sk, pretty small DA/SA. No 365 but fairly close to a Glock 26 with a bit less blocky of a grip.

 

[Homerboy]

Where did you think things would go with a title like that?

Ever try a SIG P228, 239, 245, or the sweet little P230/232's? Seems like they would all fit your bill perfectly, although the 230s are a 380. Still, they are sweet shooters with sweet DA triggers. Just remember to decock.

I’ve tried the 228. Excellent gun and Sig is top notch but it’s way bigger and heavier than anything out today. I had a 226 once. The closest I could get to what I want is a S&W CS9. I had one once. But still heavier than anything out there.

The XDE is also big. It looks out of proportion too. There’s a new 4.5 inch version that looks much better, but it’s too big.

I used to conceal carry a Glock 19 and a 26. They’re just too big and chunky nowadays. I’ve been spoiled by the new light weights.

 

[trackskippy]

I really don't consider any of those "big", I carry a 17 daily, and switched to it from a 226, and a 220 and Colt Commader/GM before them.

Smallest I go these days is a 26, and that's basically a back up, unless I just cant carry the 17 for some odd reason. Used to use a P230 in that spot until I switched to Glocks.

Only real reason for going to the Glocks was basically cost of the guns and accessories. I get more for my money with the Glocks. I like the SIG's and still have a few, but the Glocks are just as good shooters, and even a tad easier to shoot well with, and the cost difference just means I get more of them.

 

[kidneyboy]

As long as the thread is wandering -
I switched from carrying a 1911 to the XDE in 45. It's a great little shooter.

 

[danez71]

I still remain on the pick what you like and train appropriately crowd.

For sure, Me too... I've said it a half dozen times in this thread. Many others too.

But we still get posts that are intended to get the upper and put the other side on the defensive and justify thier choice... what ever that choice is.... only to be further picked at.

It works both ways. Some on both sides do it. I just highlight it.


As I've said a few times already several times, its a circular arguement. Pick your tools and know how to use them.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The title of this post is “Are Safeties on Striker Fired Pistols Heresy?” Not pistols in general. Striker fired pistols. This became a safety vs no safety argument.

Where did you think things would go with a title like that?

On these note and as far as this thread has drifted from the OP...to be expected at 350 posts...I think we can put this one to bed